Anders Behring Breivik was convicted of murder this morning in an Oslo court and sentenced to 21 years in prison for killing 77 people in twin attacks in Oslo and Utøya.
There was absolutely no doubt of his guilt. He was convicted on the evidence of many more witnesses than the ‘two or three’ required by scripture.
The Bible shows us that the law of God is based on the principle of restitution. The criminal pays back what was stolen to the victim. But in the case of murder, nothing can satisfy the dictates of justice except the life of the murderer. Anders Breivik should have been sentenced to death.
As it is, he has a three-room cell suite, complete with a laptop in which to communicate with his various supporters around the world.
Oddly enough, the prosecution wanted the court to conclude that Breivik was mad not bad. It used to be criminals in the United Kingdom who opted the soft option of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. These days, with the tariff for murder set at around 11 or 12 years, the idea of a spell in Broadmoor is not so appealing. Breivik himself was given a minimum time in jail of a mere 10 years after the court acknowledged that he was perfectly sane.
The nature of the Camp at which Anders Breivik went on his murderous rampage has received little publicity. In a horrible and ironic twist, the young people at the political youth camp on Utøya island were celebrating and endorsing the anti-Israel terrorism of Hamas as Breivik was plotting his own act of terrorism against them.
A visit to the camp by Norway’s Foreign Minister was greeted by a sheet advocating a boycott of Israel. Meanwhile a game was enacted on the water symbolising the Hamas flotilla, in which a small boat bedecked with Palestinian flags was manned by smiling Norwegian young people.
Just days after American radio host Glenn Beck was criticised for comparing the camp to an excursion of the Hitler youth it emerged that the Fatah youth secretary general had taken part in it and had done so for the past 15 years. It is truly shocking that the Norwegian Labour Party should encourage its youth to team up so passionately with those who want to destroy the state of Israel.
Commentators have described Breivik as far right, but there seems nothing particularly right wing about spurning the rule of law and opening fire on political opponents. That could be better compared to the mechanism by which Adolf Hitler came to power, but how ironic that those at the Utøya youth camp should be proposing a solution to Israel as final as that which Hitler attempted for the Jews.
Join Christian Voice, or just have a look at whether to:
Hi Friends, its interesting that you say that Anders Behring Breivik should be sentenced to death, and yet in the following article about Tony Nicklinson, who wished to end his misery, you say that “it is only Almighty God who has the right to create and take life. Is the an anomally here?., in that any life taken will be taken by man, not God.
No, because Almighty God has clearly delegated the death penalty to the State in Genesis 9:6: Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Its a plain and simple case of religious hypocrisy – hardly surprising if you base your morals/world view on the backward and primitive beliefs of a bunch of Bronze age goat herders.
I wonder of this post will be allowed? Hmm..
Yes, friends, atheists really are that prejudiced, that self-righteous, that pompous, that snobbish about every previous human era and that stupid. Psalm 14:1 ‘The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.’
Hi Stephen, I completely agree with you regarding lthe death penalty, that is another of the commandments they ignore. However I knew nothing of the reasoning about what was going on that camp. You say it was anti semitic, that seems odd doesn’t it. I haven’t heard that from anywhere else. If it was true; did Breivik know the full story. That does not however make his case any better regarding murder. It does however show the nature of the labour party in Norway. This world has completely lost its way hasn’t it. from Dave H. in the wonderful name of Jesus.
I haven’t read whether Breivik knew what they were doing or not. It may be he struck at the camp in his anger at that political party being sympathetic to Islam.
They denied justice to Israel and now they have been denied justice.
I completely agree with your understanding of Scripture.
I was unaware that the Norwegian Youth were such avid supporters of the Palestinian cause and anti Israel. Perhaps this is through ignorance or not. In any event, the advocates of the Palestinian cause are clearly misguided or at worse demonic. God will continue to bless Israel and confound her enemies
I thoroughly agree and I suspect the leniency of the sentence – theoretically he could be freed within ten years – and the relative comfort of his imprisonment will do nothing to deter repetition.
I, like society as a whole, was appalled by the diabolical act that Anders Breivik committed, however I could not believe that Stephen has quite categorically said that Breivik should have been put to death. As Christians we surely understand that the 10 commandments apply just as much today as they did in Old Testament times and when Stephen says he should be sentenced to death, he is suggesting murder.
We have no right to judge as Christians for the Bible tells us that “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad”
2 Corinthians 5 v 10 NIV. In other words we are all answerable to the Lord when we meet Him face to face.
I am very disappointed to have read your post especially as I have only just become a member, but then maybe I too am at fault in not seeking God’s approval first. I now feel very strongly that I will have to unsubscribe from your site and I shall not be renewing my membership again – I imagine I will still get all your literature through but I shall not be reading it. Please think twice about what you post on here in the future, I shall be praying for you.
Liz, the judicial death penalty by the state is not murder, it is divine restorative justice. It is a command by God to the descendants of Noah (that’s all of us) for perpetuity, or for as long as there is a rainbow in the sky:
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
If you have a problem with the clear word of God, don’t have a go at me, take it up with him, seek his face and ask him to show you the righteousness of his law. Then you may be like the Psalmist, who could say: Psalm 119:97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
Stephen firstly I wish to apologise for being a little hasty in what I said and Iat the time I had no intention of having a go at you although I can see now that that was it came across,I humbly ask for your forgiveness – maybe I should have left out the last part of my post..
The death penalty that you suggest Anders Breivik should have been given would never happen in Norway as it has probably one of the most liberal judicial systems in the world. This is pretty obvious when you realise he was given a such a short sentence – which surely in most countries would have been a life sentence, with life meaning life, which I believe should have been the decision.
This takes me to your point about the sentence carried out by the judicial system of the country being the correct one. Since Norway would never mete out the judicial death penalty does this mean that the judicial system of most countries is flawed these days? I ask as this has got me thinking back to those who would have decreed the punishment for the crimes in the Old Testament who would have been God’s chosen people. Whereas in most judicial systems today that is most unlikely to be the case.
This very difficult issue is one that requires much searching of what God has to say in the Bible, which I do believe to be the word of the God, our Heavenly Father, I’ll be very interested to know what you think on this subject.
Not a problem, Liz, that’s very gracious of you. Yes, most liberal democracies today have an unrighteous legal system according to what is decreed by Almighty God. It was of course nowhere changed in response to democratic demand but autocratically by those in power.
In Britain, for example, the death penalty for murder was abolished completely in 1965. Two years later the Abortion Act was passed. Our politicians took the death penalty away from the guilty, by the state, where it belongs, and imposed it upon the innocent, in the family, where it does not. The Psalmist cries out:
Psalm 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law? 21 They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.
Deut 4:6-8 shows that Israel was meant to be a model for other nations to follow. But man likes to rebel against God, I’m sorry to say.
Liz, I agree with your comment. I too am disappointed by his comment that this guy should be given the death penalty. I wouldn’t unsubscribe but persevere to educate this guy on biblical principles. We need people like you and me here.
Don’t you think God found the activities of the Utøya youth camp anathema?
‘Those who are for Israel, I will bless, and those against I will curse.’
Anders Brevik loved his country – he had tried to confront those encouraging Islamic domination, by peaceful means, and failed. His frustration at not being able to get a hearing about his concerns resulted in his plan – ‘How many people would have to die to get the world’s attention?’
Most Islamic people are peaceful – they are the silent majority – the silent majority are always dominated by the fanatics, and the fanatics will force their fellow believers into action.
The history of the second world war is not so old as to be irrelevant. The majority of Germans were peaceful and did not act to prevent the Nazi fanatics taking over and forcing them to carry out atrocities against the world in general and the Jews in particular.
Anders Brevik never expected to survive this act which he considered more important than his own life.
Put him to death, and his earthly punishment will be over, and he will have become the martyr he expected to be in his passion to preserve the culture into which he was born.
But was Breivik evil, and if so, was that his fault, or was he possessed by evil spirits ?
Famously, he did not want to be considered mad, because he believed that his policy of exterminating left-wing youth was rational for somebody of his political beliefs. I think this alone must mark him out as right-wing. He was opposed to the left-wing. He did not attack a neo-nazi summer camp.
But would he want to to be considered “evil” ? In view of what he thought of as his serious political analyses, probably not, unlike lesser right-wing extremists who might relish being thought evil. And if he was aware of the theological implications, he might conclude that merely acting on the wishes of evil spirits which possessed him was little better than obeying the commands of voices he heard in his head.
Rox, the Bible maintains that we are all sinners, & all need the forgiveness freely given when we come in repentance to Jesus, who died to bear the punishment for our sins. In that sense we are by nature evil, but not normally possessed by evil spirits. We are responsible for our actions, & no supposed or real spirit possession excuses evil behaviour.
Romans 3 – For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Most of us, whatever religion or way of life we follow, behave rationally, with regard for our fellows. God in his providential care restrains the tendency to evil so we live a normal life, caring for our families & behaving as responsible members of society.
At some point, as in the case of Breivik, that normal behaviour is deliberately rejected because of some supposed “cause” and irrational evil follows. The turn to evil is deliberate, & renders the man specially guilty & opens him for evil spirit possession.
In no sense can people deemed to be acting under the influence of evil spirits be consider “excusable.”
You say that no evil spirit possession excuses evil behaviour !
This is very tough on anybody possessed by evil spirits, as some people are in the Bible. If evil spirits are incapable of inducing evil behaviour, they must be ineffective, and I don’t see the point of them.
Matthew 5:43-44 AMP
You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor
and hate your enemy; But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who
persecute you,
I agree with you 100 %. This is what I am trying to explain to Stephen.
What Craig quoted was Christ’s restatement of the Old Testament command to individuals to love their enemies. What I showed to Liz was God’s command to nations to administer justice. There is no conflict there.
I am sure that killing someone as punishment was under the old law as one of the commandments clearly states that ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ I would believe that under no circumstances are we to take the ‘law’ into our own hands. The bible states that vengenance belongs to God. I understand that this guy murdered innocent people but killing him is not right in the eyes of God. Sentencing him to life is good enough and leave the rest to God Almighty who is a great warrior!!! Living a christian life is not easy that is why we are referred to as ‘a peculiar people’ People hurt us or our loved ones and we instantly want to step out of salvation for a short while to seek revenge but to do this will be contradicting what Jehovah says in His word. Remember Jesus said to turn the other cheek…..This guy is still a soul even though he may be a lost one right now but where there is life there is hope. He may/can repent. He may be a minister one day, who are we to know the plans God have for us? He says that He knows them.
Hi, the Hebrew word ‘ratsach’ wrongly (I humbly suggest) translated ‘kill’ in the King James Version properly means ‘murder’. As in ‘Thou shalt not murder’. We are indeed, as individuals, not to take the law into our own hands. That is why God instituted the mechanism of the state after the flood to deal judicially and corporately with crime. The origins of human society are explained in a bit more depth here: http://www.repentuk.com/Articles/Humans.html
‘Thou shalt NOT KILL’ applies to the culprit and to the law of the land. God Almighty declares that vengeance is HIS. Weather it be the ‘law of the land’ or the law under heaven, we are not to kill or murder.If what you are saying is allowed, then what happens to mothers who ‘murder’ or kill unborn babies. Are you then saying that they too should be given a death penalty???
Please tell me where in scripture (ie, chapter and verse) the conmmand given to Noah and his descendants has been repealed and what the new Biblical penalty for murder is?
‘How ironic that those at the Utøya youth camp should be proposing a solution to Israel as final as that which Hitler attempted for the Jews’.
It should be remembered that Hitler’s troops invaded Norway and subdued the Norwegians.
What Brevik did was inexcusable. But so was the anti-Israel behaviour of those teenagers, both those who survived and those who died. God Himself will be the ultimate judge ..
The 6th commandment refers to one to one dealings with others I suggest. As does Math 5 – 7 “Sermon on the mount” teaching on our attitude to those who abuse us – “turning the other cheek” etc Summerising: Don’t take the law into your own hands. But the Rom 13 passge and Gen 9:6 quoted above clearly refers to the state in its task of maniting law and order and protecting society from man men like Brevick.. The state is permitted to wield a sword in these circs recoginising the power and force behind evil the state has to contain. There is a stage when words and dilpomacy etc etc are not enough. Hence the just war.
Stephen, if your theology on capital punishment had been applied consistency then Moses should have been executed (Exodus ch2v12). Yet he was used as God’s chosen leader to escape Egypt after this event
He might well have had a defence.
Your article is outrageous and indefensible. Those young people who were murdered were not ‘those at the Utøya youth camp should be proposing a solution to Israel as final as that which Hitler attempted for the Jews.’ That is just a political libel.
Support for the Palestinians, who are being ethnically cleansed and driven off their land, their houses demolished their youth beaten up, has nothing at all to do with Hitler’s final solution. Perhaps you should look at the ‘Christian’ record during the holocaust when the German Reich church supported Hitler, the Pope refused to speak out and western church leaders, with a few exceptions, kept silent.
The Norweign youth that Breivik murdered were doing what should have been done in the 1930’s – supporting the victims of racism.
Nor were they supporting ‘the anti-Israel terrorism of Hamas’. Hamas is a political party and group, created partly by Israel as a response to secular Palestinian nationalism. They were supporting the people of Gaza, a somewhat different thing. Nor were the Gaza flotillas ‘Hamas flotillas’. That is cheap propaganda.
Israel has no right to impose an embargo on the people of Gaza, just as the Nazis had no right to incarcerate the Jews of Europe in ghettos. A breach of such a blockade is perfectly justified.
Glenn Beck’s comparison between the camp and the Hitler youth was simply obscene. It should be obvious to all but the most stupid numbskull. Hitler Youth gloried in attacking individual Jews. Criticising and boycotting a STATE has no comparison, whatever name that state calls itself. Or was it wrong to boycott South Africa under Apartheid?
The author of this post finds it strange that Breivik is described as far right. Really? He attacked a left-wing youth group, his friends were neo-Nazis. Opening fire on political opponents is a stock-in-trade of the death squads of Central America and South America and Colombia today. All of which the USA sponsored.
It is no accident that this hate filled article should end by saying Breivik should have been sentenced to death. In Europe we are more civilised. The death penalty reduces us to the level of the murderer and if anyone deserves it, it was ‘born again’ Bush who was responsible for the death of over a million Iraqis.
Let’s see if you have the courage to print this.
Sorry to say, it doesn’t take much courage to print a rant like that.
A number of people have reported on Tony Greenstein’s anti-semitism, including HARRY’S PLACE and CIF WATCH, which monitors the Guardian’s ‘Comment is free’ column.
On his anti-Israel blog, Greenstein even has the cheek to call the Christian Voice website ‘hate-filled’. Talk about pots and kettles!
What strange people we have as enemies…
There is a vast difference between support for the oppressed Palestinians, & hatred against Jews. We want Jews & Palestinians (both Christian & Muslim) to live in peace, but Israel’s policy of expansion prevents peace.
In any case, the Old Covenant with its promises to Israel has been replaced by the New Covenant centred on Jesus, in which all Christian believers comprise Israel. Unbelieving Jews have no special status in New Covenant prophecy. (Yes, I have read Romans 11)
Romans 2 – For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Well, if the church has replaced Israel, we had better take those Deuteronomy 28 curses for disobedience to heart! But again I think we are confusing the message of individual salvation with God’s dealings with nations. And in the latter regard, I read:
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
It looks to me like the sun is still shining and I’m sure I saw the moon and a star or two last night.
Who said anything about the church replacing Israel? I said, “the Old Covenant with its promises to Israel has been replaced by the New Covenant centred on Jesus, in which all Christian believers comprise Israel.”
Now you imply the curses of Deut. 28 still apply, either to Israel or the church it it replaces Israel. Then, just as you maintain that Breivik’s victims suffered because they “cursed Israel” so presumably the Jews have suffered for the last 2,000 years because they rejected their Messiah. They themselves called a curse on themselves: “His blood be on us, and on our children.” I remember after the WWII people were saying the Jews suffered because they still rejected Jesus as Messiah. Is that what you think, when you invoke Deut. 28?
Happily the Gospel annuls the curse:
“For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
The generation that rejected its Messiah did suffer in AD 70. The promises will be ultimately & perfectly fulfilled in the New Heaven & New Earth after the resurrection & judgment. Meanwhile the Jews are just one of “all nations” counted in by the Gospel call.
If the 6th commandment really means that no one should ever take the life of another under any circumstances can someone please explain to me why subsequent to the 10 commandments there are many instances where the law requires ciizens to be taken outside of the camp and put to death? Capital punishment is God’s idea and is not contradictory to the 6th Commandment.
Capital punishment is a topic worth discussing at some stage and in some context, but I have doubts as to whether it was the wisest-possible course of action for Stephen to try to start that discussion here, in the aftermath of the verdict and sentence for one particular far-from-typical mass murder.
This was as a-typical a case of murder as are the hypothetical cases, extremely rare in real life, that pro-choicers always wish to bring up, by way of distraction from the core issue, when pro-lifers wish to talk about how typical, everyday, elective abortions abuse the human rights of unborn children. This particular crime is no more the right place to start a general discussion of capital punishment, than are the cases of the child made pregnant by rape or incest, the mother-of-five whose life an abortion almost certainly will save, or the foetus whom doctors are almost certain won’t survive more than a few minutes after birth if carried to term, when starting a discussion about abortion.
The subject of capital punishment is one that will always be difficult to ge complete agreement on. The covenant made with Noah is quite clear as Stephen points out. However it is also quite clear that the commandment given in Leviticus 20:10 – “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.” – requires that adulterers and adultresses should be put to death. Yet we find when the Lord Jesus is asked to pass judgment on an adulteress, he says: “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.” (John 8:11). Would he have said the same for a murderer? Another interesting example is that of David after arranging the death of Uriah. He was not given the death penalty.
My belief is that the law points out the punishment that our sins deserve, but by the grace of the Lord Jesus we’re freed from that punishment as he has taken it in our place. It is not for us to mete out that punishment or to judge others.
Finally, I believe that, although as Christians we are freed from the Old Testament law, we must still submit ourselves to the law of the land.
Jem, all offences other than homicide could be settled or satisfied by a payment, as the law makes clear:
Numbers 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death. 32 And ye shall take no satisfaction for him that is fled to the city of his refuge, that he should come again to dwell in the land, until the death of the priest. 33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.
The Lord Jesus could not convict the woman in adultery as the prosecution witnesses and advocates withdrew their case:
John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
See an article on that here: https://www.christianvoice.org.uk/?page_id=4087
Who was going to bring king David to justice?
The problem with your second paragraph is it confuses the ministry of the state with that of the church. If you steal, I’ll expect you to be brought to justice and to make amends. Equally, I’ll expect the church as a body to explain the saving grace of the Gospel to you so you might be forgiven in heaven and sin no more on earth.
Christians are no more ‘freed’ from the righteous moral law of God (not talking about the sacrificial and ceremonial which was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus) than we are freed from the law of gravity. And why on earth would we want to be? Have you not read Psalm 1, 9, 19, and 119?
Stephen,
Thanks for the reply – food for thought there. As I said capital punishment is always going to be gifficult to get agreement (even with myself!). I don’t think I’ll be able to persuade you (either because I’m wrong or I’m not as well versed in scripture as you are, or I ought to be), however I’d just like to clarfiy a couple of the points I made that you’ve commented on:
First of all regarding the adulteress – you’re quite right that the witnesses and advocates withdrew. I believe thought that when the Lord Jesus said to them “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” – it points out to us that all we, as sinners, have lost the authority to carry out such a sentence. I haven’t yet reconciled to myself the consequences of this, such as the possible anarchy that would ensure if no sentences were carried out, hence I tend towards believing that this applies just to the death sentence.
Secondly – who was going to bring king David to justice? He was brought to justice by the Lord God with Nathan the prophet bringing him the sentence – the loss of his child, not him.
Thirdly – I’ve not come across the term ‘the ministry of the state’ before. Please can you elaborate?
Finally Galations 4 and 5 provide adequate explanation of our freedom from the law. The law no more judges a Christian, as we’re redeemed from it by the blood of Christ. However the law becomes the Christians delight – no more is it something that we’re bound to, but something that out of love we keep (as enabled by the Grace of God). So of course I’ve read Psalms 1,9,19 and 119 (in fact we’re currently reading through Psalm 119 in our Family worship in the morning) and in it, you can tell that the psalmist has been saved: he delights in the law rather than fears it.
Thanks. See here for my interpretation of the woman in adultery and the meaning of ‘without sin’ in that context: https://www.christianvoice.org.uk/?page_id=4087
The ministry of the state is given here by the Apostle Paul:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
I used to think that only church ministers were ministers of God, but the Apostle shows the apparatus of the state in its judicial function is a ministry of God. And of course at a time when Caesar was regarded as a god and subject to no-one, that was radical!
It was not Stephen that first advocated capital punishment, it is God himself. It was our loving God too who destroyed the whole earth and saved Noah and his family. Do you have a problem with that?
Remember that God too created Hell for fallen angels. However humans who reject God’s offer of salvation through Jesus Christ end up in hell. Some Christians unfortunately through lack of knowledge and been sold to false doctrines are ending up in hell.
I am personally not bothered whether nations adopt capital punishment or not. The lord willl judge nations. I have no doubt that Jesus is coming soon. The signs are here for the discerning. Mr Brevik is a murderer but the same fate will be meted out to the liar or sexually immoral or idolaters- see Revelation 21:8. While he is alive, I hope he accepts Jesus Christ as his saviour.
People who hate Israel or are antisemitic are making a disastrous mistake. I honestly fear for them. You cannot fight God and come out in one piece. It may seem so now but one day you will regret. Take time to read the scriptures. You will be blessed if you support the Jewish people- if you have a problem with it then take it up with God. Some Christians don’t believe the concept of hell- Mary Baxter’s book I believe is a true account of hell. After reading this book you will understand why Jesus said fear God and not man.
Steven,
This post further confirms that you are a fundamentalist extremist. The overwhelming majority of Christians today would regard your views as abhorrent.
My question to you is “what would Jesus do?” The Jesus I know and love would never kill or execute anyone. God longs for none to perish but the death penalty removes any chance a person has to come to repentance.
There are dozens of other theological and ethical arguments against capital punishment.
One interesting point to mention is that Israel, a country which you clearly think highly of (as do I), basically doesn’t have the death penalty. The only person they have executed in 64 years was an exceptional case from the darkest period in history (Adolph Eichmann, a Nazi war criminal who avoided Nuremberg). You’d do well to follow their example (and please don’t suggest Breivik’s crimes are comparable).
Well, if all it takes to be a fundamentalist extremist is to support the justice of Almighty God and the grace of the Lord Jesus, I’ll have to plead guilty. The Lord Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity and as such gave that Covenant to Noah and wrote the book of Genesis.
The Jesus you know and love would never kill or execute anyone? That won’t be the Jesus of the Bible, then.
The Jesus I know will say: (Luke 19:27) ‘But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.’
The Apostle John knew Jesus better than you or me. He said of him: (Rev 19:11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
If Jesus will never allow anyone to go to hell or has no interest in doing justice then why should men repent? The Jesus I know said: (Luke 15:7) I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Perhaps I did not make myself clear. My post was largely in support of Stephen. My question was directed to those who passionately oppose capital punishment. My problem with capital punishment is killing the wrong offenders. I have however read of people who have accepted Jesus before they die, in a way it becomes a blessing in disguise. I don’t understand all the arguments but I do know that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not repent of his word. Although we are in a dispensation of grace, it demands even higher standards! For instance adultery begins with lusting in your heart.
Stephen is zealous and passionate for the Lord. He is bold and he is to be admired for the awareness he brings to the body of Christ in the UK. I believe he is building his treasures in heaven. God does not take criticism of fellow believers lightly.
We should be bold however to point out or criticise ‘wrong doctrine’ just as Jesus did.
Someone once said that if Jesus Christ preached the way many preachers preach his word today, he would never have been crucified. Food for thought.
It is right to condemn the violence perpetrated against these people and we should have a natural sympathy for the bereaved and injured. Moreover, I strongly condemn all violence as I am a man of peace.
However, we need to remember what is taught in Genesis 12 v 3; in that verse we are clearly told that God’s curse is upon those who are against the Jewish people. The people on this camp were batantly anti-semitc and, as the Bible says, “God is not mocked” Gal. 6 v 7.
Could it be that God permitted these killings as a judgement upon them for their anti-semitism? I would not like to say that was definitely the case, but we need to take the warning from God’s word seriously. Those who come against Israel and the Jewish people put themselves under God’s curse.
I write as a Bible-believing Christian of over 50 years.
Stephen writes:
“A visit to the camp by Norway’s Foreign Minister was greeted by a sheet advocating a boycott of Israel. Meanwhile a game was enacted on the water symbolising the Hamas flotilla, in which a small boat bedecked with Palestinian flags was manned by smiling Norwegian young people.
Just days after American radio host Glenn Beck was criticised for comparing the camp to an excursion of the Hitler youth it emerged that the Fatah youth secretary general had taken part in it and had done so for the past 15 years. It is truly shocking that the Norwegian Labour Party should encourage its youth to team up so passionately with those who want to destroy the state of Israel.”
The website claims to be “Christian Voice” but the Christian commission is .Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. . The great commission opens out the purposes of God to include all nations. In Revelation we read: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
There is no longer a preferred status for ethnic Jews – But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. The generation who rejected their Messiah suffered the destruction prophesied by Jesus & others in AD 70. Now Jews are on equal footing with Gentiles.
Any antisemitism or indeed any racial discrimination or oppression is totally abhorrent. That, of course, applies to the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, both Christian & Muslim which has been going on since 1948. The Israeli terrorist gangs were much more efficient than the Palestinians. Once the Israeli terrorists drove out the Palestinian people, they denounced any opposition as “terrorism.” But state terrorism is much more efficient than any terrorism by oppressed people whose resources are necessarily limited. The Israelis are MUCH more efficient at killing Palestinians than v.v. The massive US support of Israel for “Christian” reasons, supported by Stephen & his ilk, is NOT in the spirit of the new covenant Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The tacit approval of the murderous actions of Breivik because the youngsters “cursed” Israel by calling for a boycott is extraordinary.
I think there may be some confusion here between God’s dealings with us as individuals, including the admission of gentiles into the kingdom of God through the blood of Jesus, for which I am very grateful (!) and God’s dealings with nations. Let’s be careful also lest we be taken as apologists for the false religion of Islam, to which the mere existence of Israel is anathema.
Reply to IanD.
The OT prophecies regarding Israel were never revoked.
Moreover, I did not give tacit approval to the killings of these people; I simply pointed out the truth of Genesis 12 v 3.
When it comes to personal salvation then of course the Jews and gentiles are on an equal footing viz. all people need to repent of their sins and accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour. However, the promise of Genesis 12 v 3 still stands.
What did Paul write about the promises to Abraham?
Gal. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Is there ANY NT Scripture that gives Jewish unbelievers a privileged position in God’s purposes?
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Note “Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” It happened in AD 70 as Jesus prophesied:
Mat. 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
As Scripture says, “if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” The promises to Abraham are freely available to the Jews, & all mankind, through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Again, this is all personal and to indivduals, nothing to do with Israel as a nation whatsoever. We still have the words of the Prophet Jeremiah said concerning Israel as a nation. What is your reaction to those?
There are many glorious OT prophecies concerning Israel’s future – but who or what comprises Israel? Ethnic Jews regardless of their belief in Jesus Christ, or all Christians, regardless of ethnicity? Paul writes:
“if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Rom. 2:”28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Peter applies the promises to Israel to Christians:
1 Peter 2:”9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”
Clearly the church does comprise a nation, albeit a spiritual one, while unbelieving Israel does not, according to God’s word.
Ian, you are quoting yet more scriptures about individual salvation, concentrating on the spiritual side while flatly ignoring the words of Jeremiah about Israel as a nation on earth:
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Then there is the word of the Lord through Ezekiel:
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Please address these passages in God’s word.
There is a sorry and intellectually dishonest tendency amongst people in general to flatly ignore evidence that opposes their point of view. I always try myself to avoid that temptation and confront the uncomfortable. And if it fits my point of view, fine. If it does not, I have to change my position.
Reply to IanD
I would suggest that you read the last 2 verses of the book of Amos. These clearly teach that the Jews would be brought back to the land and never again be uprooted.
Moreover, you have signally failed to answer my point about Genesis 12 v 3 – those who come against the Jews do put themselves under God’s judgement.
Which say:
Amo 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
Plant them upon their land. It will be hard to spiritualise that away.
James in Acts 15 explains how we should understand the prophets, particularly Amos:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
A Gospel interpretation is called for. God’s promises to Abraham will be perfectly fulfilled in the New Heaven & New Earth, not by the re-occupation of the promised land. As Hebrews writes:
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
“There is a sorry and intellectually dishonest tendency amongst people in general to flatly ignore evidence that opposes their point of view. ”
Thanks for the accolade, Stephen.
How did the New Testament/Covenant writers use & understand the Old Covenant prophecies? The words of Jesus & the writings of his Apostles say NOTHING about an earthly kingdom future for ethnic Israel. Covenant blessings are only received through our New Covenant Saviour.
“Jer. 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.” I’ve already quoted Galatians 3, which shows how Paul understood the “seed of Israel” – Christ & those who believe in him. That nation will never cease to exist, & continued throughout the 1900 years that ethnic Israel was not a nation.
Peter confirms that the church inherits all the prophesies to Israel: “1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”
What about Ezekiel 36-37 & 40-48? That word was to the Jews in exile in Babylon – & they did indeed return as one nation to rebuild the temple & prepare for Messiah to come. Note: “11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.” That is clearly figurative – he’s prophesying to living exiles.
It happened – we read the fulfilment in Ezra & Nehemiah. Messiah was still to come 69 “weeks” after the decree, when he was baptised & anointed by the Holy Spirit for his ministry.
Why do YOU consider that OT prophecy trumps NT fulfilment?
Peter wrote:
“1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.”
I’m sorry Ian, God’s covenants, unless conditional, don’t have a use-by date. For example, his covenant with Noah is still in force for all mankind. Our Lord and the Apostles said nothing about it. They did not need to. It does not need restating in the New Testament. God is faithful to his word. And it is the same with God’s covenants with Israel. Christ did not tear up those covenants.
You should realise that OT prophecy can be fulfilled more than once. As it happens, Ezekiel’s prophecy was not fulfilled by the return of Judah to rebuild the temple, because he says both houses of Israel will return, and because they did not occupy the land as a sovereign state. They do now. I know it is hard balancing the idea of the mystical ‘Israel’ of which Paul and Peter speak with the physical state of Israel over which Jeremiah and Ezekiel prophecy, but it can be done by the grace of God with perhaps a more Hebrew way of looking at things.
The confirmation that for Jeremiah the ‘seed of Israel’ is not synonymous with the ‘seed’ of Galations 3:16&19 which is Christ (and only Christ) comes in v37: ‘If heaven above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for what they have done.’
Sorry to disagree, but the New Covenant stands above the Old, & has totally superceded it.
Heb. 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Why do you call your website “Christian Voice?” You blatantly reject the clear teaching of Jesus & his Apostles, dismissing it as “mystical.” You do not speak for Christians.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
The blessed Apostle is talking about the OT sacrificial system in Hebrews, which was superceded by Christ’s sacrifice. Are you seriously saying that God has abrogated his covenant with Noah?
God did not make the Old Covenant with Noah – that covenant was:
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
That Covenant is separate from the death penalty for murder – the death penalty is not an element in the “Rainbow Covenant.”
Wow. So the preceding verses are not part of God’s Covenant with Noah?
Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Gen 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
Gen 9:8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, …
Mankind on your reading needs to go back to being vegetarian, then. And the ungodly can murder at will, just as they did before the flood. Nice.
Stephen, those verses are God’s instructions to Noah in the post-flood environment. He was given permission to eat meat, but not blood. He was also told to execute murderers.
Those instructions can be followed or disobeyed by man, & do not form part of the ensuing covenant.
God makes a covenant with Noah that Noah CANNOT break. It is expressed in Gen. 8 as:
21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Vegans are not breakers of the covenant with Noah, nor are governments that do not execute murderers. BUT murderers will still be judged by God – surely your blood of your lives will I require.
Noah cannot break the covenant as you see it because there is nothing he has to do under it! Only with the preceding verses does the covenant make sense as a covenant between two pepole. ‘Noah, you and your descendants do this, and I shall do that.’ I agree the rainbow / flood part will not be countermanded by God because of any sin on the part of Noah’s descendants.
But you are still out on a limb and I don’t understand why you have to insist the Noahic Covenant does not begin until v9, or what sort of ‘theology’ such a view forms part of. Most evangelical commentators (and certainly the Rabbis) view the Noahic Covenant as the whole passage of Chapter 9:1-17. See:
http://www.theopedia.com/Noahic_Covenant
http://bible.org/seriespage/noahic-covenant%E2%80%94-new-beginning-genesis-820-917
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_(biblical)#Noahic_covenant
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Divine_Covenants/divine_covenants_03.htm (A W Pink – a bit long)
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/noahic-covenant/
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Covenant/chp8.html
http://ncbf.net/audio/2009.02.08%20Genesis%209.1_17.pdf
Man CANNOT break the Rainbow Covenant. The Old Covenant is quite different & requires Israel’s obedience.
Lev. 26:9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
11 And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
…………….
Jesus in person, as man for man, as our surety, fulfilled that covenant in perfect obedience bearing the wrath of God against sin & sinners in himself. So doing he established the New Covenant in his own blood. That covenant is everlasting:
Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament (covenant) in my blood, which is shed for you.
Heb. 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
God never abrogates any covenant – he fulfills them in & through the Lord Jesus Christ. If the Jews want to be in covenant relationship with God, they must come to him through Jesus.
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
i think you just have to accept that Steve wants the death penalty, lacks the ability or courage to acknowledge that that is so (or the self awareness to examine why) and so will pour over the Bible searching for a verse and a God he can mould in his own image to support that view.
On the contrary, Phoebe, my own feeling would be against the death penalty. It is only the clearly-stated Biblical command in God’s covenant with Noah, restated throughout scripture right up to the book of Revelation, that forces me and everyone who honours the word of God to accept it.
I’ve looked your links – they do not support your assertions.
e.g. Your second link states:
“(4) The Noahic Covenant is an unconditional covenant. Some covenants were contingent upon both parties carrying out certain stipulations. Such was the case of the Mosaic covenant. If Israel kept the law of God, they would experience the blessings and prosperity of God. If not, they would be expelled from the land (Deuteronomy 28). The blessings of the Noahic covenant were not conditional. God would give regularity of seasons and would not destroy the earth by a flood simply because He said so. While certain commands were given to mankind in verses 1-7, these are not viewed as conditions to the covenant. They are technically not included as a part of the covenant.”
The point is, of course, that however wicked mankind becomes, God’s rainbow covenant with Noah stands. Man CANNOT break it, nor by extreme wickedness, cause God to flood the earth again. “The blessings of the Noahic covenant were not conditional.”
It truly beggers belief that some people here are so angry at your statement of the biblical outlook on the death penalty… If only they were all so animated on the outrage that is of the genocide of abortion – oooppss, sorry, forgot that’s diffrrent that’s about convenience!
I, IanD, wrote:
At some point, as in the case of Breivik, that normal behaviour is deliberately rejected because of some supposed “cause” and irrational evil follows. The turn to evil is deliberate, & renders the man specially guilty & opens him for evil spirit possession.
In no sense can people deemed to be acting under the influence of evil spirits be consider “excusable.”
Rox wrote:
You say that no evil spirit possession excuses evil behaviour !
This is very tough on anybody possessed by evil spirits, as some people are in the Bible. If evil spirits are incapable of inducing evil behaviour, they must be ineffective, and I don’t see the point of them.
That is a typical misquote, Roger. Read again what I wrote.
I think that the situation was different in the time of Jesus, in that some “innocents” including children were possessed. Jesus delivered them. My experience of present day demon (aka evil spirit) possession is nil, & I consider that the “deliverance” ministries I have heard of are at best spurious, or more likely are themselves evil, & not true Gospel ministries. The “child witches” we hear about in Africa are victims of a dreadful superstition & it is possible that the witch doctors or false Christians involved are themselves possessed, having turned from the living truth of God.
The Gospel of salvation that we preach includes the promise of the Holy Spirit, & he will not come into a believer without clearing out evil spirits.
1 Cor. 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honour God with your bodies.
This correspondence is now closed.
[…] Breivik: right verdict – wrong sentence […]