In the name of inclusiveness, the first so-called ‘gay marriages’ are happening in England and Wales this weekend. The media and politicians are falling over themselves to congratulate homosexuals on ‘tying the knot’ in an orgy of sycophancy. BBC Radio 5 Live this morning even had a peer of the realm ‘proposing’ to his ‘partner’ on air.
The ‘yuk’ factor is overwhelming, and a woman referring to another woman as ‘my wife’ may result in gales of laughter, but we need to root our response in the word of God, that is, in the Bible.
The Lord Jesus Christ said this:
Mark 10:6-8 ‘From the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
And becoming one flesh, in the full conjugal sense, is something a pair of women, or two men, can never do. Between them they lack the necessary parts of the anatomy to be achieve it. That is why they have to indulge in activities which fall short – to put it mildly – of the conjugal marital act.
The new law – the Marriage (Same-Sex Couples) Act 2013 admits that a couple in a gay marriage cannot consummate their marriage and states they can only commit adultery with someone of the opposite sex. That may be a recognition that sexual fidelity has little relevance to homosexuality, but it is also shows that ‘gay marriage’ is a farce, a sham, a mockery of God’s holy institution.
Homosexuals were promised ‘equal marriage’ but instead they have been given joke marriage. But the pretense at marriage they will be celebrating this weekend is still a counterfeit which devalues real marriage.
Marriage has been redefined for everyone, against the wishes of the majority of people. ‘Gay marriage’ was in no party manifesto and there was no consultation on the principle of it. The Coalition 4 Marriage mustered 650,000 on their petition against ‘gay marriage’, Stonewall could not even manage a tenth of that.
Christian Voice has consistently opposed the homosexual agenda. We continue to oppose civil partnerships, on the grounds that the state should give no recognition to relationships built on perversion, but as civil partnerships convey all the benefits of marriage, Prime Minister David Cameron should have left it there.
The Apostle Paul, writing to the early church in Rome, spoke of those who become their own god:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature…
So homosexual desires are described as vile affections in the Bible.
It’s all bad news for our nation.
If you want to be blessed and safeguarded you don’t throw God’s righteousness in his face. You don’t turn what God calls evil into good, and turn what God made good into evil. Successive governments since the 1960s have consistently legislated away the laws of God, upon which this nation was built.
But ‘gay marriage’ is a massive step towards the social economy of Sodom. David Cameron and the rest of our leaders are responsible for casting our land away from the protection of the Almighty.
Only for the individual homosexual is there any good news and that is only in the saving grace of Jesus. His blood shed on the cross has the power to remove the stain of sin and the power of sin. No-one has to stay gay. However you became like that – and no geneticist will say that anyone is born like it – there is forgiveness, deliverance and healing in Jesus Christ.
And it isn’t just sexual sins and the sin of pride that can be forgiven by Jesus. He stands ready to forgive all who truly repent and will never turn anyone away. That is the true message of inclusiveness.
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“God gave them over to a reprobate mind . . .” (Romans 1:28).
And this is the result.
It’s enough to put you off your tea.
I shall steer clear of the media for a week or so I think.
This is indeed a very sad day for Britain who once sent out missionaries to her empire bring the glorious word to All Mighty God to the heathens and for that she was mightily blessed. How the mighty have fallen when in her arrogance she turned her back on the Creator of man and all the universes. All Mighty God is not mocked, his laws do not change, therefore the mark of death is on the forehead of the British Lion. This is what he has declared what will befall mankind for disregarding His laws.
In Esdras II He states the following:
“For many great miseries shall be done to them that in the latter times shall dwell in the world, because they have walked in great pride, and said in their heart, that there is no God; yea and that knowing they must die. It is not My will that men should come to nought. But they which be created have defiled my name that made them, and were unthankful unto Me which prepared life for them. And therefore is my judgement now at hand. These I have not shown to all men, but unto thee and a few like thee. ”
“The Most High hath made this world for many, but the world to come for few. For there be many created, but few shall be saved. So I considered the world and behold there was great evil, therefore I will Let the multitude perish then, which were born in vain; except for a grape of the cluster, my plant; for with great labour have I made perfect. ”
What an indictment of mankind.
Lets pray that we will prove worthy of being one of the remnant, a grape of the cluster. If not it would be better we had not been born.
I’ve just returned from one of the first gay marriages in the uk , and it was between two Christians. One question, stephen, just one: marriage as a recognised institution predates Christianity. Marriage belongs to many faiths and those of none. No faith has ever owned it, CV is obsessed with it (especially the sex act in your case). Wouldn’t it be healthier and happier if you found something else to be angry about ?
Yes, Paris, marriage predates Christianity (and Judaism) because it is a creation ordinance. It was instituted at the beginning of time. As Jesus Christ said:
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
As to this ‘gay marriage’ being between two who claimed to be Christians, I have sympathy for those who are trying to reconcile their faith with their sinful lifestyle, but they need to repent in order to avoid the wrath of God.
Read my article on subjective faith: ‘MY TRUTH’? OR ‘THE TRUTH’?
Stephen, with respect to those who are gay having ‘sinful lifestyles’ they need to reconcile their faith with, I doubt that they want your sympathy and I also doubt that they will encounter the ‘wrath of God’.
Romans 10:9, 13. “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. . . . For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Was “..except for homosexuals” edited from this verse?
Jesus himself didn’t seem to pick homosexuals out for any special condemnation then, and there is no mention of homosexuality in the Ten Commandments, so why is it given such prominence among the more fundamentalist Christians?
By the way, I’m not gay myself and I don’t agree with the concept of gay marriage, although not because I think being gay is a sinful lifestyle, but because I believe that marriage should be an institution around which a family can be created naturally.
There is also the bizarre situation where these marriages are recognized as never being physically consummated, which isn’t so much an issue, yet it is also only possible for one partner in such a marriage to commit adultery with a member of the opposite sex meaning that pledges to remain faithful are ambiguous to put it mildly.
Are gay couples capable of loving, faithful relationships? Of course, and civil partnerships catered for this, but for me ‘marriage’ is not an institution which can be consummated and where fidelity is a requirement with gay couples, so it isn’t marriage.
Some will disagree and I’d respect intelligent, rational arguments against my own position without resorting to the suggestion they will suffer the wrath of God.
I do respect your own position Stephen even though I disagree very strongly for many, any reasons, just a few of which are listed above, and what I would add is that if you are indeed correct, in that the specific ‘sin’ of homosexuality precludes salvation for the individuals concerned unless they repent, does this also apply to all other sins?
We are told that even if a man looks upon another woman lustfully, he has committed adultery in his heart and this is deemed more of a sin that the physical act in the eyes of God.
I would therefore suggest that every young boy reaching puberty commits adultery numerous times every day, because of God given natural urges, so unless every young boy repents on a daily basis he is damned?
If the answer to this is ‘yes’, I’d suggest it is the constant promotion of guilt and the fear of ‘God’s Wrath’ which has resulted in plummeting church attendances, increasing church closures and a general perception that Christianity is not about love and forgiveness – the example Jesus gave to us during his life – but about the old testament God who was prone to commit genocide of man and beasts when they displeased him, which was often.
So why is sodomy the only sin which is singled out as one from which someone does not need to repent?
Your boys in puberty point displays a complete ignorance of the point being by made the Lord Jesus.
As for a wrathful Old Testament God at odds with the message of Christ, have you not read this:
Matt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. … 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Homosexuality is an abomination, always has been and always will be.
These evil people will not stop with this, if you give them an inch they will take a mile. Watch them now go to the European Courts to Force Churches into marrying them.
The Government will then wash their hands of it and say, “We didn’t want this to happen but we must obey the European Court”. Church Pastors and Ministers will then be prosecuted like B&B owners and perhaps the only answer will be to stop offering Church Weddings or go to prison.
Make no mistake, Satan is at work in these people attacking the Church. But in times of persecution, the Church only ever gets stronger.
Also interesting to note Peter that the church of england has already dropped its opposition to the gay marriage law, and that two churches in London are planning to bless gay ceremonies but of these two churches one is run by a gay minister who’s planning to marry his partner, God help us all, i wonder why these people believe its ok to do this when the bible is clear on the subject and what are they going to say when they stand before the Lord to give an account of their life?
Once their celebrations are over, what will the sexual revolutionaries’ next goal be? I suggest education and churches’ charitable status. This is certainly a major milestone in the dechristianisation of Britain.
One other thing which I believe that is important in the Same-sex Marriage Debate, is that Christians should stop calling homosexuals ‘gay.’ This is the word that they have invented for themselves to present themselves positively to the public. Until the 1980s, ‘Gay’ had the meaning of blithe, happy and frolicsome, as in the 19th Century song by Franz Lehar, ‘A bachelor gay am I!’ By using the homosexual lexicon word gay, Christians are acknowledging their acceptance of this fait accompli. Use the word homosexual. Homosexuals know the meaning.
Personally, I now use the word gay mostly in its modern sense of substandard (as in, ‘that coat’s gay’). But I see your point.
I believe the issue goes deeper than the homosexual thing. Homosexuality is usually Gods judgement on a people or nation. When a nation is given over to Homosexuality, according to scripture it’s a result of a peoples rebellion against God. What we are seeing is Gods judgement on Britain. I pray it will not extend to the rest of the UK.
Rom. 1. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. (ESVST)
Marriage is an institution reserved for a man and a woman, what a shameless goverment we have.
You caused this. Call yourselves Christians?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdkNn3Ei-Lg
No. I’ll tell you who caused Jonah Mowry’s sad life and the bullying he received. Homosexual activists who persuade young boys and girls that adolescent same-sex attraction indicates a permanent ‘orientation’ and who go around talking homosexuality up and giving bullies a weapon to use against shy boys and tomboyish girls. People like ‘Sir’ Ian McKellen, Elly Barnes, Jake Dyos and the rest of the low-life at ‘School’s Out’.
Here is some advice to any boy or girl going through what Jonah has gone through:
1 Never self-identify as ‘gay’.
2 Never let someone else identify you as ‘gay’. They do not have the right to speak into your life.
No. I’ll tell YOU what caused Jonah Mowry’s sad life. It’s you so called Christians behaving in completely the opposite way to the way Christ lived his life. You may have forgotten that he entertained lepers and prostitutes. He didn’t hate anyone. Unlike you Satanic creatures. YOU cause misery to thousands if not millions in this world when actually you should be spreading the love of Christ. You’ll burn in hell.
This illustrates what I was saying to any young person being bullied. There are people who do not have the right to speak into your life. Especially judgmental bullies who accuse you of stuff you have never done and then tell you you’ll ‘burn in hell’.
These are the specious arguments of those trying to justify their sin.
They fool no one, least of all the One with Whom we have to do (Hebrews 4:13).
No one has the right to speak into someone else’s life. As a former homosexual, many people have told me that I am gay. They are trying to speak into my life and tell me what I am. Does it cause distress? Sometimes it does. But I know who I am in Christ and no one can take that away from me. Christians are not the cause of and distress that I’ve felt any more than they are the cause of the distress that this kid has suffered. Those who bully others have likely never even set foot in a Church! Here at Christian Voice we certainly oppose bullying. Personally I watched that video and I really felt for that young man. There is nothing to indicate that Christians caused the pain and suffering he was feeling.
When I was his age in school, many people were speaking into my life telling me that I was a homosexual. I believed it because so many people said it. Yet that wasn’t the truth. The truth is that we are all created by God and we are called to follow him and live by his standards, not our own.
Reply to Peter: Your testimony is an encouragement to evangelists, like myself, who take the Gospel onto the streets of this country.
Whenever I meet gays the first thing I tell them is “Jesus can change you”. They believe that being gay is like being black, you can’t change it, it’s the way you are. However, 1st Cor. 6 v 11 tells us they they can change.
As far as gay marriage is concerned I have written an article about it.
http://www.bobhutton1.blogspot.com
Regards
Bob
So, you openly admit to using the word gay in a derogatory sense, then claim that Christians have nothing to do with bullying of young people. I have never seen such bare faced hypocrisy.
There is no connection. Your argument is gay.
Jane, And changing the meaning of the word to mean something it’s not is blatant deception. The same as the rainbow. It’s been hijacked to mean something entirely different than God intended it to mean.
Language changes over history; there are countless examples of it. It’s not ‘blatant deception’ it’s just simple language change.
As for hijacking – isn’t that what Christianity did to pretty much every pagan festival in the calender? Not really sure the point you’re trying to make here.
I find it strange that when stuff like what happens to the young man in the video or anyone for that matter, Christians automatically get blamed. My guess is, that the people who are responsible for the bullying that young person went through probably never darken the door of a church. Darren what exactly is your source that the bullying that young man went through was caused by church attending Bible believing Christians? I know of no Christian who would cause any human being that kind of pain. Bible believing Christians are globally behind the most compassionate projects in the planet. Who are building the orphanages, schools, and hospitals in the third world? Yep you guessed right. The Christians. I know of no atheist charity working in any third world countries. I know our church is involved in two projects in Africa. One building and running a school another bringing water to villages where there is none. All financed by private donations. So in reply to your statement “you call yourselves Christians”, well yes actually we do.
I’ve no idea if this post will make the light of day, as I think I’m censored here, but I think you have a point. Darryn White isn’t helping anyone, least of all that poor lad in the video, by tarring all Christians with the same brush and alleging (I assume with no evidence) that his bullies are all Christians. If we take him at this word, I think we can only assume he is the victim of homophobia, which is motivated by a whole host of impulses, and not all religious. (I can’t remember, does he actually self-identify as gay, or are these just the labels his bullies use against him?) However, you loose me when you suggest that Bible-believing Christians are incapable of such behaviour – have you not read Leviticus 20:13?? It may well be the case that Christians are capable of great charitable acts across the globe, but it is also a religion that has a problem with homophobia. Scientology is credited with rescuing many an alcoholic and drug addict, but it also has a problem with breaking up families and psychologically abusing apostates. Islamic charities do some great work, but that doesn’t cancel out the religion’s significant flaws. And if you really know of no atheist charities working in third world countries, then I can only imagine you are deliberately trying to keep them from your consciousness for reasons unknown…
Leviticus 20:13 is part of a corporate national law-code administered under due process of law.
I agree with you that there are atheist charities active in the developing world. HIVOS, George Soros’s Open Society, the Ford Foundation, Gulkbenkian, Jon Stryker’s outfit, The Gates Foundation, Marie Stopes and Planned Parenthood spring immediately to mind. They always run politically-correct projects with an agenda designed to advance atheist political policy, their own market or that of their friends, and/or world government. There will be divisive feminist empowerment stuff, or pro-homosexual stunts, or promoting promiscuity, abortion and contraceptive implants the West won’t license, or the wilder examples of environmentalism, or destabilising governments. You’ll never find them alleviating poverty for its own sake.
In contrast to the overtly atheist outfits there are non-religious charities such as WaterAid and SightSavers who are motivated by compassion and do great work IMHO.
Oh, and Jonah Mowry does not self-identify as gay in the video or in the notes he has posted for it. That is left to the likes of Darryn White and the bullies. Therefore he is not a victim of ‘homophobia’ but a victim of bullying. He must refuse to self-identify as gay, or the bullies and the Darryns of this world will have won.
Yes darryn we do
May i explain what a ” christian ” is
It is someone who has seen GOD’s mercy and love in his life and realizes that this world has nothing to offer but lies and deception and suffering
As GOD rightly said ” man has ruled man unto his injury” and continues to do so
Sadly most of mankind believes the satanic lie that they can become as gods yet man may be able to prolong life through science and technology but he cannot cheat death for GOD is the source of life and man cannot live without spiritual connection with HIM
Most of mankind falls into the snares of pride and selfishness resulting in more suffering and injustice
You are misguided if you think our loving act of wishing to save you from eternal torment because of your decision to love the world and its ways is a hateful one
You HAVE been given free will but GOD wants you to choose wisely and do what pleases HIM and not temporarily obtain favour from your fellow man
Whether you believe it or not GOD DOES know what is best for you
I cannot see anything cruel being done to Jonah Mowry. He’s just sitting in front of the camera, waving pieces of paper that he has written on. He appears to be unpopular amongst his peers, and says that he has been unpopular since he was (I guess) five or six years old. But he doesn’t know why he is unpopular, and nor do we, after watching his video. What has that video got to do with this story?
John, unless he’s a brilliant actor, the boy is in considerable distress and is holding up those cards because he cannot trust himself to speak without breaking down. He claims to have been bullied and accused of being homosexual.
He does not self-identify as ‘gay’, but you can be sure the likes of Stonewall and School’s Out will identify him as such, just like Darryn White did, just like the bullies do. Stonewall did the same thing to the late Dominic Crouch, driving his father to suicide as well. There was never a scrap of evidence that Dominic was homosexual, but that did not stop the Stonewall low life from claiming him as one of their own.
P.S. Now I find out Jonah Mowry made a second video sitting chewing gum saying everyone in school loves him. That video he then deleted and anyone who has tried to repost it has been slapped with a copyright order and told to take it down. And there is a note on his original video (the idea for which he copied almost word-for-word from ‘Meet Jade’) saying he has now ‘come out’. In addition to that, videos on his channel where he makes fun of fat people and those with learning disabilities have been cleared.
Yes, people’s emotions can change, but the fact that the second video has been pulled and sat on and all his embarrassing videos expunged leaves me with the feeling that I’ve been fooled.
Dispassionate view from International Business Times: http://www.ibtimes.com/jonah-mowry-lied-family-friends-perez-hilton-defend-bullied-victim-video-379420
Anti-Jonah comment from a YouTuber: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FIwNhZ8_QA
Pro-Jonah comment from a gay activist (possibly Perez Hilton): http://writtenthought.webs.com/apps/blog/show/10760934
This definitely is from Perez Hilton and has fewer words, until the comments get going: http://perezhilton.com/2011-12-06-real-or-fake-the-truth-about-jonah-mowrys-video#.Uzqw8ahdWSp
Or Google ‘Jonah Mowry lied’
Stephen,with respect I don’t think that this is a subject that can be handled with the requisite sensitivity on CV. I think a lot of people of varying opinions would rather this person was not dragged to pieces on this forum. Though you didn’t bring it up, you certainly would happily keep the fires burning under it.
Dragged to pieces? Who’s doing that?
Husband & husband, wife & wife, these terms have rendered marriage ridiculous, and has tainted something that was held to be sacred and special, our politicians are not worthy to govern and the sooner the three parties are removed the better for us all. (I hope),
Stephen I thank God that there are men such as you who bring the truth into the political life of this nation’ I pray that God will bless you mightly in your work.
It can be helpful to divide opinion on same-sex marriage into biblical ethics (the true Philadelphia-like church holding to the word of God), liberal ethics (the liberal false church as seen in many institutionalised politically correct churches) and no-ethics (culturally defined morality as well demonstrated by the media and now underpinned by UK law). See: http://www.seekingtruth.co.uk/gay_marriage.htm .
Ten years of EU Equality Directives have driven much of this – see http://www.seekingtruth.co.uk/homosex.htm and underscores the need for Britain to remove herself from the EU.
Looking through here hoping to find just a little bit of common decency. I suppose I shouodn’t have looked on a religous site trying to find that. Go back to the dark ages, where you belong.
You put a lot of thought into that, Jack, didn’t you?
A little, I just found it a bit annoying (and slightly humorous) that so many people are so ignorant. Also *shouldn’t, hadn’t realised I’d made that mistake there.
If you want real ignorance and lack of common decency, I recommend the Freethinker website.
I had a look , but I didn’t see anything shaming people for who they are and infringjng on others rights. I don’t see them hating people for no good reason either…
Except Christians of course. They hate us with a vengeance. But I sent you there to look at ignorance and lack of common decency, as in, for example, the inability of so many of the correspondents to frame an argument without the use of foul language.
“common decency”? Didn’t you read anything I posted about what Christians are doing worldwide? I suppose you did, but unless we agree 100% in every area with the ‘tolerant’ liberals then I see tolerance is for everyone else except Christians. We aren’t allowed conviction of conscience. Just everyone else is.
Fair enough, I just don’t like it when people are shown as being perverts for being different. Im not particularly bothered about gay marriage as I dont really want to marry, and probably not to another guy. I respect you have a right to your opinion, but I see no good reason to disagree with it. And by the way I read one of your other comments and I agree that christians shouldnt be blamed for what other christians do.
Jack, we don’t say homosexuals are perverts because of what they are, but because of what they do.
And nowhere does Jonah Mowry himself blame Christians for the bullying he says he has experienced, or identify those responsible as Christians. Darryn White is just bangwagon-jumping and using the poor young man as a campaign tool. And that is pretty despicable.
What they do?
Also as I said I dont blame christianity as a whole for what some christians do.
Yes, what they do. The Terrence Higgins Trust let the cat out of the bag during the AIDS crisis. I’ll spare you the details of homosexual activity which I am sure you can look up. But is either dirty or abusive or both. The politicians of course avoid the details, talking instead of ‘love’. Is love 5 minutes in a public convenience? I don’t think so.
“We don’t say homosexuals are perverts because of what they are, but because of what they do.”
Which is what ?
Look up ‘homosexual activities’ on a popular search engine, Jane.
Almost every book promoting homosexuality has a chapter on ‘gay health’. You won’t find that in a normal book on marriage, for instance. Firstly there is the promiscuity which has resulted in gay men becoming the major receptacle for blood-borne diseases AIDS and hepatitis B, normal STDs like syphilis and rectal gonorrhea and gut diseases associated with bad sanitation such as hepatitis A and shigella. Secondly, the promiscuity is coupled with homosexual practices. That is because homosexuals, frustrated by their inability to engage in true sexual intercourse, have to resort to activities which are abusive or dirty.
Homosexual acts fall a long way short of the God-ordained conjugal act. And it is no good trotting out the old line that ‘some heterosexual couples’ engage in acts like sodomy. That hardly makes such abusive acts right.
I’m not bothered by what people get up to in their private lives. I’m more bothered by your hypocrisy at slamming anal sex and oral sex between men as being perverted, yet taking the attitude of ‘we’ll not comment on what goes on behind closed doors’ with heterosexual couples.
You should be bothered if their lifestyle needs your tax money to support it.
In 2003, the estimated direct medical cost of Sexually-Transmitted Infections in the UK was £413m.
The cost of Highly-Active Anti-Retroviral Treatment for AIDS (HAART) runs at anything up to £10,000 per patient per year and there are around 75,000 people receiving it in the UK. So that’s another £750m.
There can be no argument that the ingestion of faecal matter is dirty and that activities involving the lower bowel are dirty, dangerous and abusive. Add in the promiscuity in the homosexual world and you can see why these activities have such an impact on public health and the public purse – your money.
This whole situation is appalling. Utterly shameful for a Christian nation. It is a total farce to me that the Minister for External Affairs is a Muslim in whose religion Homosexuality is a criminal offence punishable by death and yet is allowed to afflict this on a so called Christian nation. I say so called because it breaks my heart that the churches are so silent. In my opinion the churches should very simply shut their doors until the Government gets it’s nose out of that which belongs to God. But God will withdraw His protection over the nation which was a Bastion of Protestanism, ruled by the Word of the Almighty, and leave it to its own chosen devices.
Seeing all of this going on I do endeavour to make people aware and just pray that they will listen.
My heart aches for the fact that people like Mr Andrew Cain bring the name of my Holy and Righteous God into the dirt. Things like this simply make God a laughing stock in the eyes of unbelievers and the blood of these will be on the hands on those like Andrew Cain, I won’t use the term Reverend that would also be insulting since “Holy and REVEREND is HIS NAME” Ps 111:9 and no man has a right to take that title upon him especially one who is treading the Word of that Reverend God under his feet.
My only comfort in all of this is the fact that the King of Kings is coming soon and He will put an end to all of it.
“These things thou hast done ,and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you to pieces and there be none to deliver. Whoso offerth praise glorifieth me: and to him that orderth his conversation aright will I shew the Salvation of YHWH. Ps 50: 21-23
[…] Stephen Green has got to say even though we are good friends, but I suggest you read the article ‘Gay marriage’ is a farce that he has published on the Christian Voice web site, as I agree wholeheartedly with many of the […]
Well a bunch of people taking so called guidance from an invisible man in the sky, criticizing people who just want to have the right to show love and respect for the one they love. In not so many years from now people will come and read this thread as either a.) comedy better than any comedy script writer could come up with b.) An example of undiagnosed mental illness.
Wasn’t it the Stalinists who accused their political enemies of being mentally ill?
I would point you to the great atheist of all atheists Friedrich Nietzsche and in his article ‘God is dead’ foreseen the dangers of a society bereft of biblical God given morals.
http://www.philosophy-index.com/nietzsche/god-is-dead/
Nietzsche had an insight that Cameron would have done well to study.
Well fear of living without god given morals doesn’t really compensate for the fact that there is no evidence that such a god exists, and once you get a critical mass of people in a country or a society with sufficient critical thinking skills, one can no longer spin the same fallacy as a method of getting people to live together peacefully, particularly when some of the religious principles actually negatively impact on large numbers of the population. We will just have to use other human traits (other than blind belief in a higher being and associated principles) to ensure our peaceful existence.
Hahaha. Very amusing. And they say we believe in ‘pie in the sky’!
Personally, I should love to see a ‘critical mass’ with ‘critical thinking skills’ unspinning the fallacy of evolution. But I’m not holding my breath!
Well one of my two replies made it through the censorship here…to be fair I wasn’t expecting any of my posts to have made it so I am above expectation 🙂 . So Stephen is it my assertion that sufficient numbers have critical thinking skills that causes you merriment, or that you don’t think we are capable using other human traits to ensure our peaceful existence?
And even if one gives credence to the thinking that the theory of evolution doesn’t have all the answers, or even the necessary answers, at least it is based on facts, learning and intelligence. A lot of fine minds have had and will continue to have the opportunity to develop our knowledge and thinking and help us further understand our journey up to this point. And that is surely indicative of how we have to continue to proceed and progress, using our collective intelligence to give us as much information as possible to make the best decisions and policies we can?
Oh, please! The modern Theory of Evolution according to Lewontin is NOT (I have to shout, apparently) based on facts and learning, let alone intelligence, it is based on anti-theistic presuppositions.
You want some facts? Life has never been seen to arise from non-life. FACT. Bacteria lack the energy to mutate into nucleoid cells. FACT. Lenski started with E-Coli Bacteria, and after twenty years of fiddling about with them, he ended up with E-Coli Bacteria. FACT.
Show me how atheist societies in history have secured a peaceful existence for their citizens. Try Soviet Russia, China, Cambodia and North Korea for a start.
This is a reply to your 11:34 (UTC 1) post which doesn’t have a reply button on it.
Why do you quote Lewontin, and why do you link to an article from 1997? There are surely more recent, relevant and indeed respected citations to use. Dawkins on Lewontin..”he is known for the strength of his political convictions and his weakness for dragging them into science at every possible opportunity”. Notwithstanding, my interpretation of the piece you quoted is that he is saying basically it is a leap of faith to trust scientific experts, and being atheists it is difficult to let theistic possibilities get a foot in the door to use your own terminology. I don’t interpret what he is saying as evolution isn’t about facts, learning and intelligence. Also, my own view is that whilst evolution as we currently understand it doesn’t provide anywhere near all the answers, it is the best we have got, and the route most likely to give us further understanding. The bible, gods, scripture is an intellectual dead end that makes zero sense and for which there isn’t a shred of evidence.
In terms of the examples of atheist societies you mention, they are also communist dictatorships and not always atheist. China for example, has a large number of religions (not sure how to post a link here) but just
Google “China religion” and look at the latest Wikipedia article on it. 31.4% (400+ million people) are religious. I am also not convinced we can confidently say that all these countries are less peaceful or successful than theistic countries either. Yes there have been horrible atrocities, but they didn’t start WWII nor did they have catholic priests abusing children. China is poised to be the next economic superpower of the world.
I think you have proved Lewontin’s point.
Firstly, you admit that ‘evolution as we currently understand it doesn’t provide anywhere near all the answers’ but despite that you contend ‘it is the best we have got’ and perplexingly, ‘the route most likely to give us further understanding’.
And then the real give-away: ‘The bible, gods, scripture is (sic) an intellectual dead end that makes zero sense and for which there isn’t a shred of evidence.’ Now that is a stupid and ignorant comment solely based on atheist preconceptions. Not ‘a shred’ of evidence that the kingdoms of Egypt, Israel, the Hittites and Babylon existed? An ‘intellectual dead end’ which just happened to produce all of Western civilisation? And ‘makes zero sense’ when it says, ‘thou shalt not steal’?
Laughable comments based soundly on exactly the sort of anti-theistic prejudice Lewontin describes. Good work.
Not a shred of evidence of an omnipotent all seeing being Stephen. And thus no reason to base our 2014 political and policy decisions on the bible or gods.
Evolution is one of the most respected and well proven areas of modern science. It doesn’t describe well as yet how the first micro organisms got here, nor does it describe how the whole universe was created, though other areas of science are tackling that. But it does describe how man has evolved from other species, and thus makes a lot popular religion pretty absurd.
Still best wishes to you, I hope for the sake of devout religious types there is some basis to what appears to be this nonsense.
Oh I see, you meant no evidence for God, not no evidence for the events described in the Bible. Anyway, not to you there isn’t, but you start from atheistic preconceptions and you would not be convinced even if someone rose from the dead.
Evolution might describe stuff, but it’s all hedged about with ifs and buts and ‘we think’ and ‘we believe’ when you read the actual papers. It doesn’t stack up to normal scientific methods of testing and experiment. It’s mostly conjecture, and as Lewontin has said, people cling to it not because it makes any sense, but because the alternative is to allow ‘a Divine foot in the door’.
What a grievous day for our once God fearing country. I so heartedly agree with some of what has been expressed above. Hearing the Archbishop of Canterbury accepting what has been permitted saying that we have to accept what Government has passed, with no reference to God or His Word, that we just have to carry on. David Cameron is now finished and should go down in history as the Prime Minister who caused the Queen to break her Coronation Oath, to be the Defender of the Faith, when he presented her with the Document to sign that totally contravened what God had set out in His Word as the meaning of marriage.
Thank you for all you do in providing a platform bringing these matters to the concerned Christians of this nation. May God richly bless and encourage you.
Stephen… You got there before me in your reply to Joseph in spotlighting Soviet Russia, China, Cambodia and North Korea. Those and more are tried and tested examples of a regime living without God given morals and conduct. When God is taken out of the equation a void follows which is usually filled with evil as seen in the examples of godless societies above. Nietzsche foresaw such dangers but I fear the godless of today prefer their sin than turn to God as this would present them with the very inconvenient realisation that they are accountable.
You clearly failed to see my reply to this point above. a.) Religion wasn’t and isn’t totally eliminated in these countries. over 400 million Chinese are religious. b.) It is incorrect to suggest all these countries are failures. The current leader of Russia is busy, with the support of the majority of his people, re-create the Soviet Union. China is close to being the next superpower of this earth. c.) I won’t list them all, but the vast majority of religious countries and groups harbour evil too. Lets start with Islamic theocracies that have spread terrorism all over the world, catholic priests in Europe and the US that have sexually abused the vulnerable, Catholic / Protestant troubles in Ireland, the evil spread by evangelical groups in the US. And finally lets return to the title of this thread, and the group we have here. Just because people who have nothing to do with this group want to show their love and commitment to each other, we get ridiculous bigotry and falsehoods in the name of your religion. Thank goodness we are unlikely to ever return to the theocratic country you people seem to desire. Hail Secular Liberalism 🙂
The Chinese leadership and political world-view is atheist, Duh! 400 million Chinese are religious, eh? Population of China is 1.35 billion. I am sure the persecuted Christians and Falun Gong are pleased the Chinese economy is doing so well, on the back of slave wages, of course. No mention of North Korea or Cambodia I notice, and Russia has now turned its back on Secularism. Next, please!
Don’t fall into the trap of confusing Islam with Christianity. Even an atheist should be able to work out the difference.
You should be pleased that those Catholic priests so enthusiastically adopted secularism.
Definition: big·ot [big-uht] noun: A Christian person who is winning an argument against a secular liberal.
But ‘falsehoods’ and ‘evil spread by evangelical groups in the US’? Stephen M, what’s he talking about?
Lol…winning the argument, yeah, right :). You gave example of China as an atheist society that hasn’t secured a peaceful existence for its population. My point is that a.) is isn’t purely an atheist society, and b.) is currently the envy of the western world from an economic perspective. Most countries in the world that are considered advanced societies or first world countries are secular democracies where religion is playing a decreasing role. Religious societies, and I include all religions here, are often poorer and less peaceful speaking generally. Perhaps you can give an example of a successful theocracy or devoutly religious country?
OK. Where do I begin? It’s very difficult to put across a point regarding the evils of an atheist /secular /socialist /communist regime that reject God and try and live by their own non morals to someone who by looking at what they post clearly have no clue about what they are taking about. I like in Northern Ireland, I’ll address your comment on that in a minute. Joseph I suggest you get out more. Your local library might be a good place to begin. Read up some on what you are taking about. Regarding China being a religious country. Yes there is religion in China but Christianity is driven underground. China has a state controlled church which is a puppet church of the state thereby no threat to the state. Real Christianity on the other hand is driven underground. Worshippers there meet secretly in houses for fear of being arrested. Take a read at brother yuns story ‘the heavenly man’. I have both read his story and heard him speak of his ordeal under the ‘liberal secularism’ that you are so keen to see imposed on the rest of us. You can read his story here. http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Heavenly-Man-Remarkable-Christian/dp/185424597X
We had a north Korean woman speak here. Her name is Mrs Hea Woo. She recounted unspeakable horrors of life in ‘liberal secularism’. I have no link for her but I’m sure if you Google her name you will get some results. Perhaps you could post for us the evils of evangelicals in the US? I’m totally unaware of any of that? In fact if you take the time to look at my reply to darryn above you’ll see what exactly evangelicals worldwide are up to. When Albania was a country, it was the first country in the world to declare itself a 100% atheist state. So much for liberal secularism there. God help the Christians that had to go underground there. Now. Northern Ireland. If you were historically astute as to Irish history you’d know that what’s going on here is not a religious war. What has been going on here for centuries is a turf war. Basically the Irish (traditionally Catholic) were waging a campaign to remove British rule in Ireland. The protestants (the descendants of Scottish and British planters who came here in the 1600s) oppose becoming United with the rest of Ireland and wish to remain British. Both sides are Catholic and Protestant in name only. It’s a tribal war not a religious one. Are you seriously suggesting that the thugs on either side of that divide who were out on a Saturday bombing and shooting then drunkenly celebrating their ghoulish deeds in some pub that night were sitting in church on Sunday worshipping God? If you do I have a piece of ground I think you might be interested in at a very keen knock down price. Anyway, this is my last word on the subject. I find it’s pretty pointless trying to have a battle of wits with someone who comes totally unarmed.
Stephen M
It’s interesting that you urge Joseph to get out more, when it was you who couldn’t think of a single atheist charity working in the developing world, despite claiming to be connected to Christian charities that are. Personally, I don’t think it helps to frame the argument as between atheist and religious societies, but between (a) ideological dogmatic societies and (b) secular liberal societies. If you can identify me a ideologically dogmatic society that works – whether that be religious or otherwise – and a secular liberal society that doesn’t, now or in history, I think that could be the real beginnings of a productive conversation.
Ta.
I’ll give you the one re atheist charities. But because I wasn’t aware of them doesn’t mean that my knowledge of what’s going on in atheist /communist countries regarding persecution of Christians isn’t valid. But I don’t make outrageous claims pretending I know stuff about what’s going on in Northern Ireland and elsewhere when I clearly don’t. The claim of Joseph claiming that evangelicals in the US are guilty of evils is unsubstantiated. Evidence I and others put up regarding what happens to Christians in countries that abandon God are on the other hand very provable. Now I stated earlier that I was finished posting here as I believe the non Christians no matter what is posted are determined to remain unconvinced and will remain so unless God gives them the revelation He gave those who believe in Him. Enjoy the rest of your life.
I found some stuff on YouTube on Hea Woo. Do a search for her in YouTube and try the second video. I found the first difficult to follow because of Mrs Woos regional accent.
Sorry Stephen M, is that post meant for me? At a glance, it looks like Hea Woo is a persecuted Christian in North Korea? Seeing as North Korea is one of the most dogmatic ideological societies on the planet – a thanatocracy if you will – I’m not sure what point is being made here?
Ta.
I am fully aware of Irish history. I am currently in the process of studying for a history degree. When in your opinion does a tribal war, become a religious one, when the tribes involved use religion to differentiate themselves. It is certainly a valid point of view to take the position that the English brought what became Irish terrorism on themselves based on how shabbily they treated the Irish during the potato crop failures in the mid 19th century, and so I can agree the troubles fall more into the realm of political protest and resentment than a war over whose version of the bible is the right one. However, catholics and protestants have been fighting religious wars in Ireland for centuries. Have you heard of the Battle of the Boyne? It is not a coincidence that the nationalistic troubles beginning with the failed potato harvest, leading to Irish partition, and subsequent terrorist activity, is framed in religious terms, because contextually it is just the continuation of a long term protestant catholic conflict.
With respect to the evils of American right wing Christianity…well what most people consider evils you guys will probably support…but lets consider the role of the evangelical christian groups in promoting Racial segregation and denying civil rights to millions of citizens. I recommend you read “Thy Kingdom Come” by Randall Balmer.
Now that really is nonsense. Evangelical Christians have been at the forefront of the drive to eliminate both segregation and slavery. Look at William Wilberforce. Ahheists were quite happy with slavery.
Stephen, Wilberforce was an English salve trade abolitionist in the early 19th century. We are talking about American right wing Christianity here, and the American civil rights movements..please stay on topic 🙂 . If you want further direction in evidence and reading matter, so you don’t need to ask the other Stephen what I am taking about 🙂 , look up the “myth of the curse of Ham”, and how that has been used Southern Christians in the US. It’s Biblical so you should be ok there :).
No, the clue is in the words. The “myth of the curse of Ham” is not Biblical, it is a white-supremacist myth.
Well indeed, of course, I agree, it is a myth, one that has been used by US southern evangelical Christians, to perpetuate the evil of racial segregation, racism and denial of civil rights. Also, if we agree white supremacism is a bad thing, shouldn’t we be considering prejudice against Lesbians and Gays negative too? The US evangelicals are pretty accomplished at that too, as I’m sure you know, and indeed support. Linking back to the original point made by the other Stephen, evil comes from God fearing and adhering (allegedly) societies, as well as non-religious ones.
No, because you cannot change the colour of your skin, but people switch the object of their sexual attraction.
Wow, there is a statement, made without any qualification. Are you sure about that?… the gay part I mean 🙂
Just google ‘ex-gay’!
But there is lot of research out there that suggests people are born gay. Just google “born gay” 🙂
Come back when you find a geneticist who agrees with you.
Hi Stephen,
I found your point “Homosexuals were promised ‘equal marriage’ but instead they have been given joke marriage. But the pretense at marriage they will be celebrating this weekend is still a counterfeit which devalues real marriage.” to be quite an ineresting perspective. I am currently writing an essay for university on the passing of the same sex marriage bill and trying to collect data from your side of the field. Would you mind if I quote you?
Thanks
Claire Porter
You are free to quote for comment from anywhere, but thank you for asking. Go ahead, and I hope it works out well.
Sorry Stephen M that it looks like we’re not going to be able to discuss this anymore.
I am happy to agree with you that Christians are persecuted across the globe, as are many other religions, especially when they become a minority. However, I don’t agree with you that it is the absence of Gods that causes/drives this, as many religious are persecuted by other religious. I’d also be careful about goading people into evidence of evil done by American Christian movements (‘evangelicalism’ just stating the obvious about adherents’ belief in the absolute truth and divinity of the Bible), unless you are willing to argue that the Army of God, Westboro Baptist Church, Hutaree and Ku Klux Klan are forces for good? As I mentioned earlier, I think it just suits you that it is the absence of Gods that causes human rights abuses in non-religious ideologically dogmatic societies, when it is plain to see it is usually a replacement ideologically dogmatic system driving the abuses (given that history shows us that injecting gods is no inoculation against human rights abuses). I think the reason that you are finding the atheist community so resistant to your arguments isn’t because they are in denial of your undeniable infallibility, but because you are yet to give an example of a secular liberal society that commits human rights abuse because of its secular liberalism.
So just to be clear: (1) A definition of secularism might be the claimed right for the state to be neutral on matters of religious belief, and for religion and state politics to be separate; and (2) Liberalism might be understood as the promotion of liberty and equality, including ideas such as free and fair elections, civil rights, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free trade, and private property etc. You see when we use these definitions, you will see that countries such as China, North Korea, and the former USSR were far from secular (they were not neutral on religion) or liberal (there was no freedom of religion). Another analogy for liberalism might be “my right to freely swing me fist ends at the tip of your nose”, which is why liberalism generally opposes the rights of the religious to encroach into the private lives of others by insisting on rules to what consenting adults can do with certain parts of each others’ anatomy in private, that certain types of strangers can’t get married, that a whole country should be aligned with a certain religion even if not all of its population share that religion.
Not sure what you think?
It was ‘atheist’ societies we spoke about initially, not ‘secular liberal’ ones. Personally I believe that the ‘secular liberal’ elite have not yet had enough time for the persecution to really get going. At the moment it is concentrated on depriving Christian people of their living rather than their lives. That’s what the Americans call ‘Green Martyrdon’ (after the colour of the dollar bill).
BTW,
Army of God need to remember that the Bible expounds due process in law, not taking the law into your own hands.
Hutaree I know little about, but the worst of the allegations against them seem to have fallen flat.
It is a pity no-one really engaged Fred Phelps in his theology. But then again, the man was so belligerent that reasonable discussion, even at the level we have here, was beyond him. Louis Theroux tried but he was so out of his theological depth it was embarrassing.
Er, the Ku Klux Klan as a Christian movement? You haven’t been at the bottle again, have you?
Why do you all spend so much time worrying about other people and what they are up to, when it’s yourselves who clearly suffer a mental health condition? You base your warped beliefs on a fairy tale written two thousand years ago, an ‘invisible’ being that you claim to be ‘god’ who clearly doesn’t exist. You spout your hatred against other human beings like it’s your divine right to, and then moan and claim ‘hate crime’ when someone stands up to you. You’ve none of you any right to criticise anyone else’s way of life. Gay people are born that way. Most wouldn’t chose to be gay, but they are – and as human beings born in a free world they deserve exactly the same rights as anyone else. You CHOOSE to follow a religion. Yours is the lifestyle choice, not theirs. You insist that people respect your lifestyle choice, so why do you not afford the same courtesy to others?
Your bible is full of contradictions, very convenient to allow you to interpret it the way you chose to. Religion is simply a way of oppressing and controlling people, and it’s lost it’s grip. The majority of people have woken up to the fact that it is nonsense. It’s just an excuse to hate your fellow man.
Bonkers. Plain bonkers. Great fun tho’.
Stephen M spoke about China as a ‘liberal secularism’, and I was addressing that. Personally, I am uninterested about ‘atheist’ societies, as the non-belief in gods and goddesses has a natural path to nowhere in particular. (How does this blog’s Christian believers’ non-belief in the Raëlism Elohim influence their moral outlook? When have they ever committed a moral action because they disbelieve in Elohim? Or does their disbelief in Elohim dictate a moral path to nowhere in particular?) I am more interested in political ideologies, as they at least describe moral positions.
As for the Ku Klux Klan: Wiki makes the referenced point that burning crosses became “a representation of the Klan’s Christian message. Thus, its lighting during meetings was often accompanied by prayer, the singing of hymns, and other overtly religious symbolism” and that “Klan members had an explicitly Christian terrorist ideology, basing their beliefs in part on a “religious foundation” in Christianity. The goals of the KKK included, from an early time onward, an intent to “reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible”, and they believed that “Jesus was the first Klansman.”” Now some may argue that they could never be ‘true’ Christians, but then I would invite them to explain why they haven’t committed the ‘true Scotsman fallacy’ given that most Klansman would probably disagree with them.
And yes, I have been at the bottle…
Straight up from Wikipedia, which anyone can edit, eh? And even then, the first part of what you quoted can be found in the Wikipedia article on the Ku Klux Klan under the heading ‘The Burning Cross’ which was apparently adopted by the Second Klan 1925-1944. The quote about re-establishing Christian values is nowhere to be found. ‘Christian terrorist ideology’? That’s an oxymoron which is new to me.
A bit of research establishes that the Ku Klux Klan is only a Christian organisation in the imagination of those Klansmen who want to make it look respectable and atheists who want to discredit Christianity by association with it.
In fact, the name “Ku Klux Klan” comes from the Greek word “kuklos” which means wheel, circle, or band and the word “clan”, which means family. Its members are organised in masonic-style degrees. The group is headed by an ‘Imperial Wizard’, seconded by an ‘Imperial Kaliff’. The Divisional Commanders are ‘Grand Dragons’. The Brigade Commanders are ‘Great Titans’. The Regimental Commanders are ‘Exalted Cyclops’. Not exactly Christian, any of that.
This is its primary purpose: “To unite white male persons, native-born, Gentile citizens of the United States of America, who owe no allegiance of any nature or degree to any foreign government, nation, institution, sect, ruler, person, or people; whose morals are good; whose reputations and vocations are respectable; whose habits are exemplary; who are of sound minds and eighteen years or more of age, under a common oath into a brotherhood of strict regulations.”
Their Criterion of Character is Jesus Christ, “who went about doing good.” That’s it. Nothing about the divinity or rule of Christ and no other reference to Christ or Christianity in all their ruling documents. You will search the actual aims and objectives of the KKK in vain for any desire to establish Protestant religion.
The original KKK cross was in the form of a X with yin-yang symbols at the centre. It was changed to an upright cross and the yin-yang changed to a blood drop (of Christ) as a propaganda move. See ‘The Mystic Insignia of a Klansman‘
‘So, the K’s now look like a cross and the dark part of the yin yang is now passed off as a blood drop symbol for the blood of Christ. Well, there’s really no harm in making a change, but anything religious should be done for religious purposes and not for propaganda, public relations, or political imagery.’
I frankly didn’t know any of this, so thanks Adzcliffe. If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, a lot must be positively lethal.
Yes, I openly used Wikipedia as my source, and made no claims about its infallibility as a knowledge source. You give a fairly good overview of why, in your eyes, the KKK shouldn’t be considered a Christian movement, and why those members who think it is, are probably mistaken. But that is all you do. It is fairly clear to me that the KKK do see themselves as a Christian movement, indicating that the injection of gods and a goddesses provides no inoculation against deeply racist, xenophobic and hateful views and actions. I will keep an eye on Wikipedia to see if different interpretations of history expose the KKK as an atheist or secular liberal organisation, but I think this highly unlikely…
What is your evidence (apart from Wikipedia) that KKK misfits see their outfit as Christian?
(To set against mine from the authoritative sources I quoted that it is actually a pagan group pretending to be Christian when it suits them.)
Actually, I don’t think these are pagans pretending to be Christians when it suits them; rather they are racist xenophobes whose Christianity doesn’t prevent them from being so. Given that no amount of academic rigour can neutralise the “True Scotsman’s Fallacy”, I’m not going to go to too much effort to state the obvious about the KKK’s Christian affiliations, but when their own propaganda leaflets say they are a “Christian, fraternal and benevolent organization, […] composed of native-born, white, gentile and protestant American citizens who are sound of mind and of good moral character” and argue that a “Christian-like brotherhood among men must be revived in America” I am inclined to think they see themselves as a Christian.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/price&bowers/klan.html#Leaflet
Plain crackers.
Stephen can I respectfully suggest that the game of ping pong being played out here is going nowhere? I bowed out because I’ve had experience on other forums of exactly the same thing. It goes back and forth and never goes anywhere. Anyone who believes the kind of stuff on the KKK leaflet posted purporting to be a Christian organisation needs their head looking at. Look at the spin put out by other despot regimes who claim to be legitimate but the world can see otherwise. The islamist Iranian revolution of 1979 turned what was a westernised moderately muslim society into a nation where human rights are non existent. Try fighting there for homosexual rights and you could find yourself hanging from a crane with a rope tied round your neck. Because a leaflet has claims of Christianity on it doesn’t mean those claims are valid. Christians do NOT pull people under the banner of a flaming cross from their homes at midnight and lynch them regardless of what a leaflet might say. I think lunacy might have been an appropriate choice of word rather than crackers. And that is most definitely my final comment on this thread regardless of what spin Joseph or anyone come back with.