The sub-Christian festival ‘Greenbelt’ is at it again.
In 2010 we observed that they invited child-sex supporter Peter Tatchell to speak at their jamboree at Cheltenham Racecourse. Tatchell, also an aficionado and advocate of ‘cruising’ (anonymous homosexual encounters with strangers in public places), pitched up at Greenbelt again last year (2012) to campaign for ‘marriage’ for homosexuals – a measure now enacted by the UK Government.
Depressingly, Greenbelt’s ‘Partners’ are Christian Aid and the Church Times.
They love ‘alternative’ views at Greenbelt, but not Biblical ones, of course. No-one was invited either in 2010 or 2012 to put the alternative view to Tatchell’s anti-Christian polemics.
Nor will there be an alternative view this year (August 2013), when Reverend Lucy Winkett who chairs the Amos Trust will launch, on behalf of the trust, the anti-Israel Kairos Britain network of Churches. (Sorry, the link has evaporated: so much for ‘Kairos Britain’ network!)
Kairos, also being launched in other countries around the world, sees Israel as an oppressive, unjust and racist nation which gives no rights to Palestinians. Kairos condemns Israel and denies any right for Israel to defend herself and to live on land rightfully her own.
They call for what they describe as an end to ‘oppression and injustice’ by Israel and for ‘justice’ for Palestinians but refuse to address the oppression of Christians in Gaza or the removal of human rights of women and young men or the summary executions in HAMAS governed areas.
Kairos has failed to notice, let alone condemn, the firing of 29,000 rockets into Israeli communities since 2000 or the suicide bombings which are now mercifully being prevented by the security fence. They don’t address the increasing teaching of hatred in Palestinian Arab schools.
Greenbelt are also hosting a number of other speakers who are anti-Israel, one of whom, Mark Braverman, calls Zionism ‘racism’. Many young people attend Greenbelt unaware that it is a sub-Christian campaigning front for grindingly politically-correct fashionable left-wing propaganda.
Lucy Winkett herself is Rector of St James’ Picaddilly, well-known as ‘the New Age’ church, which has celebrated the Buddha’s birthday. Last year Lucy was at Greenbelt looking for the feminine in the divine.
A group from Christians for Zion are so concerned about Greenbelt’s stance that they have organised a witness outside the festival on Sunday 24th August 2013
In response to Christians for Zion, Greenbelt have attempted to blag it over their anti-Israel stance, pretending to be balanced:
Greenbelt’s profiling of voices from Israel-Palestine has been long and consistent. From the early 1980s onwards we have sought to give a platform to voices from the region not usually heard on the global stage; voices struggling for peace and justice who advocate non-violent action and dialogue – both Israeli and Palestinian.
But have they actually had anyone pro-Israel? Er, no. And are the anti-Israel ‘voices’ ‘not usually heard’? Er, no, again. The world’s media is awash with them. Truth is the first casualty of Greenbelt’s propaganda war.
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Another well-researched and enlightening article. Thank you Stephen.
So called Christians like Lucy Winkett and her ilk do great harm to our Christian faith.They depress me but I know that one day they will be held to account. God help them.
Google Bethlehem Wall Images and see if they are persecuting the Christians in theHoly Land. Prepare to be shocked! Oh, and incidentally, Christians in the Holy Land are called “Palestinians”.
And others are called ‘Messianic Jews’
The Rev. Winkett will be hard-pushed to find the feminine – or the divine – in Islamist extremism, but Islamist extremists will no doubt be grateful for her support.
I am very concerned about this misguided lady Reverend. She is about to declare war on God’s chosen people. History reveals,along with God’s Word that doing such a thing does not bode well for the perpetrator of such deeds. God clearly declares that such acts are punished severely. She is taking her life in a very flippant manner if she goes down this road. Somebody warn her.
Why are ‘antichrist’ messages generally ‘left wing’?
Our politicians seem driven by a hidden dark force – causing us to intervene in Libya, Afghanistan, Egypt, and now Syria – driven by left wing UN edicts, and to deliterious effect.
The only stable democratic country in the region is Israel, and an illogical hatred seems to be unreasonably generated against it.
Now, this Greenbelt alternative ‘Christianity’ with it’s offensive agenda seems to have gained a voice.
We have the consolation that God is omnipresent and knows the agenda of men’s hearts.
He said, “Will I find faith on the earth when I come?” As if to imply that people will turn to their own ways.
Fear Him Who has the keys of death and hell.
Why associate antichrist with left wing? It seems to me that Labour and Tory support antichrist and are right-wing. Israel is prob more democratic than UK. Boo to Greenbelt
Incredible in the extreme. Are these people playing at church or what? They couldn’t have read their Bible. New agers playing at church. If the Reverend actually read up on the history of Israel she’d see that there is no actual place called Palestine. The roman emperor hadrian was the one that changed the name to palestinia when he tried to erase all memory of the Jewish people.
Thank you for info concerning Greenbelt, so many young people go thinking it’s a Christian event.
Do you know where the Christian group are meeting tomorrow?
Rosemary
I understand, believe it or not, that they are gathering at the entrance.
The present day Israelis are not the people of God. They are neither the spiritual nor the physical descendants of Abraham. Their state was established by brutality and has been maimtained so ever since.
Dennis,
I take it that you are referring to the terrorism perpetrated against the British mandate of Palestine by the Israeli Irgun, etc.? If so we have to understand the conditions that brought that terrorism about, eg the Hebron massacre of 1931, of Jews by Arabs and the British authorities did virtually nothing to prevent both this and subsequent atrocities; the refusal by the British mandate to allow Jewish refugees to settle in mandate Palestine (or limited to a quota) so that they were sent back to the death camps while Arab emigration to the British Mandate was allowed without quota .. their state was established according to Biblical principles (See Genesis Ch 12) confirmed by history (the Balfour Declaration and a subsequent UN Resolution).
Further to my last: where do you stand on brutality perpetrated against Israel by Hezbollah and Hamas? I myself have visited the town of Sderot and seen the missile remains fired from Gaza by Hamas. Thousands of missiles that might have been less had Israel not withdrawn IN THE CAUSE OF PEACE.
As expected, Ashley, there is no reply when you ask people to be honest about where they stand on the atrocities committed by their favourites. Had Britain not been so biased in favour of the Arab cause prior to the First World War, Lawrence of Arabia would not ahve had the opportunities he was given, but would have been butchered.
Well UK Fred (Flintstone, I see (jest)), Lawrence seemed to have allowed nationhood status to the Arabs with Britain’s apparent blessing following the Ottoman Empire’s demise, yet perhaps this was somewhat misguided – if expected – we are living with the consequences today. Ie, to use the playground analogy, one Jewish state surrounded by four Arab states: four onto one, hardly fair.
Talking of the Ottoman Empire: it allowed the then region of Palestine (the name itself based on Syria-Palestinia given to it by the Romans who conquered it and looted Jerusalem, circa AD70, as Jesus predicted) to fall into neglect and when the first Jewish settlers arrived in the land, absentee Ottoman landlords gladly sold the settlers the land. See how they transformed it.
As a PS: the fact that the PSC (Palestinian Solidarity Campaign) take up the name ‘Palestine’ only IMHO serves to perpetrate the anti-semitism started, arguably, by the Romans.
I agree with Jonathan Campbell; this is an excellent, informative article. Thanks Stephen. Worryingly, though, I have in the past contributed to Christian Aid. I will certainly research my favourite charities more carefully in the future.
Are these the same people that come to my front door with a small enveloppe asking for a contribution?
It really should be incredible that anyone calling themself a Christian could be anti-Israel. Does not the word of God have preference over this unholy female priest and her ilk?
What warning does God give in the Bible, more than once, concerning the Jews and Israel? “I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you.” Surely even a so-called “liberal thinker” can understand that!
That very unreverend reverend could save herself by reading the Bible she supposedly preaches from.
Stephen thank you for being the ‘watchman on the walls’. One does not know what to say anymore. People like Lucy Winkett are tools of the devil. I don’t know what their or her agenda is but it is certainly not Christian. The Anglican church is becoming a truly ‘New age‘ church, syncretic in the extreme and with people like her, loosing any meaningful link to the church and body of our Lord Jesus Christ. She has all the bells and whistles qualifications and “religious” street cred but obviously is ignorant of, or chooses to overlook what God said about His people Israel. God has not abandoned them He does not break covenant so:
In the Book of Genesis, Chapter 12, Verse 1-3, we see what God says about His response to how people treat Israel: “And I will bless those that bless you and curse the one who curses you. And in you shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
From what you have said it seems she is trying to be the consummate liberal – freedom to do anything.
God said:
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Finally dear Lucy also in the book you seem to be turning your back on:
Mark 9:42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. (sorry for the male reference but in PC parlance it would also include the female so as to be equal)
Thanks, David. In all fairness we should point out that St James Piccadilly is not representative of the Church of England as a whole. Its New Age rot started under the previous incumbency of Donald Reeves.
It saddened me to read this news Stephen, but it didn’t surprise me. Below are a few words I put together recently for an Orthodox Jewish friend of mine who runs an on-line p[periodical to encourage support for Israel.
Why Should Christians Support Israel?
Genesis 12:3 “I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;
and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed”
As a Bible believing Christian, I firmly believe the Holy Scriptures to be the infallible Word of God. Sadly, this statement is considered controversial today, even by many of our Christian brothers and sisters around the world. But we simply cannot “cherry pick” the parts of scripture that we want to believe or agree with that make us “feel better” So many ministers today try to fill their pews by preaching a “Jacuzzi Jesus” of warm froth and bubbles. It’s not about feelings it’s about the never changing Word of God. In Paul’s letter to Timothy, 2 Tim 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”.
And again in Romans Chp 15:4 he says, “Everything that was written in the past was written so that we might have hope”.
So: God has promised to bless any man, woman or nation that blesses His Chosen People. History shows us beyond doubt that every nation on earth that has blessed (helped, aided, supported, defended) Israel has received the blessings of God; equally, the nations that have cursed the Jewish people have, or will, sooner or later experience the curse, (wrath and justice) of God.
Long ago God chose Abraham and his descendants to be His special people. He expressed His love to them, and they in return were to be faithful to Him and bring the knowledge of the true God to the world. Of course, we know that much of the Bible is the history of Israel’s disobedience to God and the terrible results of breaking His covenant and some churches and groups teach that the Church has replaced Israel because of this disobedience, but they need to consider the words of Paul in Romans 11:25 “I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved”. As it is written: (Isaiah 59:20) “The deliverer will come from Zion, he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
In so much of the Old Testament we are reminded that God did not forget Israel and that He will restore her. Isaiah 54:7-8 “For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back. In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you, says the Lord your Redeemer.”
God scattered them. He is calling them. He will bring them back in the way that He said he would, fulfilling all His prophecies.
Anyone visiting Israel today will see these prophecies being fulfilled before their eyes. In Isaiah 35 we read, “The desert shall rejoice and blossom as the rose” and of “Streams in the wilderness” Through advanced farming and state of the art irrigation systems the dry lands that have been in ruins for most of the last two thousand years are being turned into farms and gardens producing some of the most beautiful flowers and fruit in the world. Today Israel is a modern day miracle, a top source of food products, flowers and other goods, (too numerous and diverse to mention here), for many countries. Amos 9:14 and I will bring my people Israel back from exile. “They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit”. Amos also prophesied that there will be continued planting and harvesting. I can only say here “let those that have eyes go and see”.
Sadly, so much Christian ignorance, poor teaching, and spiritual blindness towards certain parts of scripture breeds Anti Semitism. This brings with it a very watered down and impoverished understanding of God’s plan, of His love and commitment to and for the nation of Israel.
To me, just the simple fact that Israel still exists today is because of God’s will. This tiny nation of eight million people, (six million Jews & two million Arabs, Christians and others) in a land the size of Wales, surrounded by over 350 million Arabs (who, in the main, desire its destruction), proves the existence of God, and that He still loves and protects her, and will finally and fully restore her.
Yes, there are some who teach that these “return scriptures” refer to the return from Babylon. But only a small number ever returned to the land from the tribes of Benjamin and Judah and hardly any from the ten tribes ever returned from the Assyrian captivity. Gods will is for them all to return.
Ezekiel 39:28 “Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.” God’s eternal promises, to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be fulfilled.
Zechariah 10:6 “I will restore them because I have compassion on them. They will be as though I had not rejected them; for I am the Lord their God and I will answer them.”
In 1998 Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made a speech at the Feast of the Tabernacles Conference in Jerusalem and said, “I can tell you that for the first time in the history of the Jewish people since the Second Temple period, in the next fifteen years the majority of the Jewish people will live in the Jewish land. If this is not the materialization of prophecy, then nothing is.”
We are living in an ever darkening, topsy-turvy, upside down world, where black is white, white is black, good is bad, bad is good, night is day, day is night, where anything and everything goes – apart from the truth. It seems as if the world cannot see the wood because of the trees.
“How odd of God to choose the Jews, but odder still for those who choose a Jewish God yet spurn the Jews.” W.E. Ewer/ Leo Rosten.
Christians should love and support the Jewish people in thought word and deed, not because they are better or more deserving, but because God commands us to. He chose them as His representative people to bring The Good News of the one true God to the world. Jesus was a Jew, the disciples were Jews. Without Israel and the Jews there would be no Christianity, no Churches, no New Testament, and no Sunday Schools – period. And if the church continues to turn its back on our Jewish roots then Genesis 12:3 will come to pass.
Rev Bernard Cocker June 2013
Yes indeed Bernard, tried to look you up on Facebook but ended up at your local rag in Chorley. Keep up the good work.
If you are insisting that we do not cherry pick I presume that you never wear poly-cotton or any other mix of yarns, Bernard? (Lev 19:19) I also presume that you do not allow women to speak in church and that they must keep their heads covered at all time in church? I also presume you treat your slaves properly? And what about sacrifices, do you still practice Sin Offerings using bulls?
I prseume, too, that Romans 9 doesn’t come into the equation, where Paul states very clearly that it is not every “seed of Abraham” that constitutes Israel? You obviously don’t subscribe to the New Testamant view that we, as Christians, have become the New Israel.
It’s all very well to make a theology to suport your beliefs and views, quite another to read the Holy Scriptures with an open mind to see what they REALLY say..
And to promite such views in the name of Christ is, quite frankly, obscene. You have obviously never been to Palestine and seen the sufereing inflicted on the Palestinians, be they Muslim or CHRISTIAN, or you would not be supporting Israe lwithout conditions in this way. I would suggest that before you make such statements yo inform yourself of the reality of life for the Paestinians, who are, of course, “aliens and starangers living in the land” and are thus covered by the stipulations of Leviticus 19:33.
Until you have listened to the Israelis and Palestinians who live there i suggest you keep quiet.
Silly chap, it is wool and linen not cotton and polyesther which was forbidden. And don’t you even know that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ put an end to animal sacrifices? That’s basic, elementary Christian theology.
I’ll let Bernard deal with your replacement theology.
I’ll just add that Lev 19:33 presupposes that the alien and stranger adheres to the worship of the true God and is not trying to blow you up or destroy you all.
God created Man in his own image – male and female he created them. Thus female is in the image of God. I do not know what Lucy Winkett meant by looking for the feminine in God but God is neither male nor female but spirit.
I think a sensible approach to the feminine in God is quite valid. I have no difficulty with the occasional use of God as mother but not wholesale substitution. Did not Jesus liken himself to a mother hen and El-Shaddai means the many breasted one.Men an women are different but both created in the image of God. A feminism that portrays women other than as God created them is unhelpful
Have you ever lived with Palestinian Christians in the shadow of the wall living not only under military rule but also military law? Seen the strugglers of the body of Christ established in the time of Acts of the apostles and continuously present through the wars and invasions of the millennium. This is the body that you would betray for the good of the nation (Israel) in true Caiaphas fashion
Following in the tradition of the prophets, the church is only witnessing to the justice and righteousness demanded of his people (both Jew and Christian). The land is a Covenanter gift not an unconditional one, your whitewashing of what is going on makes you no true friend of Israel
That’s a good point, Stuart. Despite Jeremiah’s prophecy and pointing out that Israel is democratic and has a right to exist and defend herself and in deploring the appalling treatment meted out to Christians by Palestinian Muslims, all of which Christian Zionists do, we can forget the fact that some Jews are not very nice and aren’t sympathetic to Christians in Israel either.
But the subtlety of that position isn’t what Greenbelt are addressing; for them it’s ‘Palestinians good, Israel bad.’
Thank you Stephen, at last we now know for certain your position on The Promised Land (is God like a man that he should change His mind? Absolutely not). Must admit I’ve be waiting for an issue to come up showing which side of this fence Christian Voice is on. Now doubly sure you are Kosher to the core.
Lets not forget Christians for Zion who are a voice to our nation as Christian Voice are, and who’s top man Pastor Mike Fryer does amazing research in hidden truths and gives hugely practical support , on the ground, to Israeli’s. They are a valuable link and resource for believers to connect with.
As you say we are gathering at the main entrance for 11am.
Imagine that you are thrown out of your house/ country that your friends/family are imprisoned/killed and that you are branded a “terrorist” for resisting this evil. Imagine you then hear that an armchair intellectual in a foreign nation is saying that the perpetrators are fulfilling God’s purposes and are blessed by him.
Christian Zionism is a pre-planned dupe and those churches that advocate it sit under a massive spiritual deception. By mixing Christ’s teachings with evil they have ensured that the Great Commission makes slow progress in the 10/40 window.
On this occasion I support Mrs Winkett.
I am all for anti-oppression in any part of the world, including injustice! I am against the way Israel treat their people.
Greenbelt is not advertised as a religious festival. A music and arts one. Nothing wrong with any of u turning up and expressing an opinion! We are all entitled to that! However it is not our place to judge, which some of you who have written comments, have!
Not quite! Greenbelt itself says it is ‘an arts, faith and justice festival … Our roots in the Christian tradition, and our approach is inclusive and wide-reaching.’ (Its approach is not at ‘inclusive and wide-reaching’ rather exclusive of anyone except the politically-correct and narrow-minded as only leftist right-on liberals manage to achieve, but by that as it may.)
In another place, Greenbelt claims to be: ‘… a Christian organisation with a global vision …’
And if there is error, it certainly is our place to point that out!
I read this article with interest but I am not so sure it deserves the ‘well researched’ compliment paid in another comment. As a Christian and long time attender of Greenbelt I equally find it hard to understand how someone with Christian beliefs can buy into Israeli propaganda and be blind to the blatant apartheid and almost inhumane treatment of the Palestinian population, particularly in the West Bank. Of course the security concerns are legitimate to a degree, but to build a 9 metre wall for ‘security’ is misleading. It is built to gain land, force people from their homes, restrict and control the water supplies to Palestinians and many more forms of discrimination all in the name of security. I have witnessed all these things first hand in the West Bank. I am not anti Israel and neither is Greenbelt. It is however standing against injustice and the inhumane treatment of the innocent masses. Please, open your eyes and learn about what is actually going on. I guess the question ‘what would Jesus do?’ Springs to mind.
Others won’t understand how anyone with Christian beliefs can buy into Palestinian propaganda and be blind to the Islamic war-mongering and hatred that is taught in the Palestinian areas.
For ‘West Bank’ I’m sure some will read ‘Judea and Samaria’.
Greenbelt is highly selective, so don’t give us all that ‘standing against injustice and the inhumane treatment of the innocent masses’ stuff.
And a better question than ‘what would Jesus do?’ is ‘what did Jesus do?’
Well he didn’t tell the Jews of his day to kill the occupying forces for a start. He actually told them to “turn the other cheek”. I don’t see how responding to a few stone-throwing youths with live ammunition is “turning the other cheek”!
Of course he didn’t, that was not his mission. ‘Turn the other cheek’ is a personal injunction which does not negate the responsibility of the state to defend its citizens.
Andy. You talk about blatant apartheid, have you considered the Palestinian manifesto to set up an independent state from which all Jews would be banned? Even their propoganda, peddled as education in their schools, depicts maps of the Middle East without even a hint of the existence of Israel. That’s what I call apartheid.
Israel has every right to exist as a nation and was half swallowed up by the Jordanian/Arab invasion in 1948 who then occupied the so called West Bank until 1967 when Israel took back what they and many Christians rightfully believed was theirs.
I am at Greenbelt and have been to many talks on the subject of Israel over the years. Greenbelt is a fantastic place where God has frequently met me and my friends/family. Incidentally I am an evangelical charismatic Christian. I have the most wonderful fellowship, who may not share all my views but love God wholeheartedly and seek to bring Gods kingdom through justice and ending poverty. Israel is a complicated issue, indeed there are frequently examples in OT of God rebuking Israel for her behaviour. So standing up for injustice in Israel is not by definition anti-God. Do not make the mistake of being the Pharisees… God bless you all abundantly. Today I am praying for church unity to be a witness to non-believers.
May God bless you, Rebecca. You will love this article of mine: ‘Jesus Amongst the Pharisees‘
Come visit the west bank or should I say occupied territory and see for yourself what the IDF do in the name of this Israel you support so blindly. Then you will get the answer to your question again. Who did Jesus befriend.
Jesus befriended quite a lot of people, but repentant sinners were those to whom he showed grace. I doubt you will find many of those in HAMAS or FATAH.
I posed the question ‘what would Jesus do?’ Precisely because of what he actually did. Rebecca put things in a very clear way too and I commend her for such a balanced and fair response. This is a debate at the end of the day, but a visit to the West Bank, or occupied territories or Judea etc. The fact remains that the Palestinian people are on the receiving end of blatant apartheid. As I said before I fully understand the concerns of Israeli’s regarding security, but it must be said that to suggest that the majority of Palestinians are buying into the Islamist war-mongering is misguided at best. From personal experience of speaking to many people in many parts of the West Bank many simply want to live normal lives in peace. In some cases under Israeli rule if their human rights and citizenship would be restored. Clearly a Zionist view does not provide for this but as a Christian I cannot turn a blind eye to discrimination or racism in any form. Happy to debate further as ever, maybe the fact that I am a gay Christian RE teacher would be a good one for you.
On what did Jesus do? You are struggling a bit with Mark 10:6-8, then, aren’t you, as a ‘gay Christian’.
I thought you would have managed a better response than that Stephen, I need more debate. I struggled to come to terms with my sexuality until my early 30’s. Growing up in evangelical circles, which I embraced, just led to a far more traumatic ‘coming out’ after being made to feel so damned by the teachings put out. I should say that was my personal experience and not meant as a general assumption about all churches, but having it described as a lifestyle choice could not be further from the truth. Clearly it is another issue we will never agree on. Greenbelt and my current church have been very loving and accepting and I would never have coped without that.
Andy, the teachings put out’ by which you feel – or felt – ‘damned’ are based solidly on what is written in the holy scriptures. God’s firm intention for human sexuality is confirmed in positives (about heterosexuality) roundly endorsed by the Lord Jesus in the quote I gave you and prohibitions on homosexual practices.
Of course Greenbelt appears ‘loving and accepting’ because Greenbelt doesn’t give a tinker’s cuss about the Bible. I know nothing about your current church; they may be trying to be nice to you and hoping you ‘get it’ eventually or they may be a whole church in rebellion.
The plain truth is, you can be struggling with same-sex attraction and be a Christian, but you cannot be in the rebellion of homosexual activities and be one, because sex with another man is sin and whoever is in Christ does not and cannot sin:
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
I am convinced that to stop labelling yourself as a ‘gay Christian’ will be a start to get in a proper frame of mind to call on the Lord for healing. It is possible to curse yourself. The ten spies who said they couldn’t go into Canaan didn’t. The two who said they could, did.
Prov 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.
I have written on these things in many articles published under our Bible tab.
And this article I wrote in in 2004 might help: Wilt thou be made whole
Andy, no-one is born gay or lesbian, any more than one is born a child abuser. If you feel ‘damned’ then it’s your conscience that is being challenged by God. There is healing and there is hope. See Stephen’s article ‘Wilt thou be made whole’.
So if nobody is born lesbian or gay – ie their sexuality is not pre-determined, then you were not born a pre-determined hetrosexual. Or had that not crossed your mind ?
Our heterosexuality has to be affirmed as we grow through childhood and adolescence. For some the process is interrupted by emotional trauma or sexual abuse. It is a serious subject, and should not be trivialised.
Need more debate, why? Do you seek truth or to make religious humanistic arguments (these two equal paganism) and even converts. Beware of putting a stumbling block in the way of one of the least of His little ones. Andrew he who teaches carries a great responsibility. Tread carefully and prayerfully, non of us want to be given over to our sinful nature as some have. I trust you will find not only what you seek, but much more than you can hope for or seek for.
I should also say that being able to dish out bible quotes is all well and good but it is also a quick way to avoid dealing with the fact that life is far more complicated than those who preach would sometimes have us believe.
Aye, and sometimes it is more simple. That is life. And that is why preachers have such a heavy responsibility.
Thanks for making a better effort this time I thought you would bite more second time around. I am pleased that the preachers I know these days take their pastoral responsibilities more seriously than you clearly do. That sort of black and white approach not only screws up lives but can in some cases lead people to take their own. That must be why you feel it is such a heavy burdon. I wish you well with your way as I go mine. We will continue to pray that one day you might understand.
Being pastoral is not egging people on in a life of sin. One day, I hope you understand that and if you love the Lord, read what he has written to you. All the way through.
Re Lucy Winkett, I am not surprised to hear what the actions and beliefs are of one who is a ‘darling’ of BBC Radio Four’s Thought for the Day.
As for Andy Smith, I am sorry to hear of his struggles. But Andy, please remember that the term ‘lifelstyle choice’ refers not to homosexual predilections, temptations, feelings, mindset or however you want to describe your mental experiences but to PHYSICAL behaviour, ie the expression of those temptations etc. Just as prostitution, adultery, alcoholism,drug addiction, smoking are lifestyle choices, obviously defined by the BEHAVIOUR. God does not condemn us for our temptaions etc, but Jesus does warn us against letting them progress into lust. The homosexual lifestyle is a behaviour with physical and soclai concomitants. So you are in good company with Christians who struggle with the above other behaviours as they try to leave their lifestyles behind to gain that which they cannot lose, the Kingdom of God. Please read the very good articles in the September edition of Evangelicals Now on this subject and may the Lord motivate you and help you.
Gosh Stephen that is a condemning, judgmental spirit that you have – I pray God doesn’t judge you as severely as you judge others!
And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
We are for justice everywhere!! We don’t forget justice because it doesn’t suit our world order Stephen.
Jesus showed grace to all those he came upon – ‘Go and sin no more’ was his usual goodbye – Did this really mean that a life without sin was possible? No!
God bless you – the greatest of these is love – Without love we have nothing
And yours is a condemning, judgmental comment.
You don’t show much love towards Israelis trying to defend themselves against Palestinian rockets, or young boys being targeted by adult homosexuals, or truth itself, come to that, do you?
Dear Pete, interesting, who are the ‘We’ you refer to, that you identify with?
Justice is usually what we want for others yes, but seldom for ourselves. Not really.
In fact there was probably only one who totally understood what justice meant, and the world crucified Him.
And we have a debt to Him and to those who made it possible to connect us with all of Gods promises. Do you understand who I mean? Not the chinese, red indian, croatian or palestinian, no to the Hebrew nation, one called people.
Say this now if you are able, and pray; Thankyou Jesus, thankyou Jacob/Israel, thankyou Jews, you all made a way where there was no way, you have all paid a great price, forgive us for our arrogance towards what was purchased in blood for me a gentile.
This is the beginning of life Pete.
Refusal of ‘other voices’?
There are many myths that circulate about Greenbelt regarding our stance on this issue, one of which is that we refuse to include / invite other Jewish voices to bring ‘balance’. Rabbi Shoshana Gelfand was with us last summer (2012) and will be again this year. Dr Raphael Zarum was with us last summer, too. And so on. We are open to a range of voices helping Greenbelters engage more deeply in a broader spirituality and a wider theological approach to a range of issues. That said, we do, on occasion, turn down offers of other voices to join the conversation when we have made a specific and prior invite to someone we want to hear from and introduce to our Greenbelt audience – and who we want to offer a platform where the only people who will challenge them are our audience, in Q&A.
Our experience is that Greenbelt’s prophetic persuasion means that we often have to be resolute in the face of criticism – listening carefully and being in dialogue wherever we can with those who disagree with us, but standing firm in what we believe to be the right thing for us to do in the light of our mission, vision and values. In the case of our ‘position’ (outlined above) on Israel/Palestine, we are aware that individuals, groups or governments who present views that in any sense challenge or critique some of the policies and activities of the Israeli government / state are de facto seen as being anti-Israeli or even anti-Semitic. Greenbelt is neither. But we do believe in exercising our freedom to criticise governments pursuing policies that are oppressive to their own or other people. We are not pro-Palestinian or anti-Israeli. Things are not as simple and polarised as that. Rather we are seeking to champion the voices of those who are embodying and articulating the struggle for human rights and equality in Israel/Palestine.
Seems an extremely reasonable stance to me Stephen!
Nice to hear from you, Pete. What position do you hold within Greenbelt?
Rabbi Shoshana Gelfand is from Reform Judaism which is liberal and I am not aware of what Dr Raphael Zarum has said on the Israel-Palestinian question.
Kairos is an anti-Israel mis-information and propaganda network which condemns Israel at every turn as oppressive and racist – denying Israel’s right to self-defence against acts of terrorism and rocket bombardment, and not defending its right to exist at all. As Cranmer has said: ‘Young Christians will leave the Festival believing that Israel is a pariah state.’
In 2010 and 2012 you gave a platform to Peter Tatchell, knowing of his contribution to the paedophile campaigning book Betrayal Of Youth and you have never had a balancing voice or one taking him to task.
Please don’t pretend that Greenbelt is anything other than an anti-Israel pro-sodomy liberal politically-correct propaganda machine. At least try to be honest.
Seems like Greenbelt aren’t the ones who are afraid of different voices Stephen or are you still checking out my email address from the previous comments?
My sincere apologies for not being at your beck and call with moderator hat on between 9 and 11 o’clock in the evening.
Thank you to both of you for your responses. I have been over all of the arguments and bible passages many times so as you might expect I came to this point in my life after much soul searching. I know we will never agree and do respect your beliefs as I once believed that I had to choose between being me or living a false existence due to believing it was the only way things could be. Being able to come out and realise that faith and being gay could actually go together was like a huge weight lifted. I know God loves me for who I am and I will continue to serve him. I have been living happily with this for several years. ps. Thanks for using capital letters to draw my attention to certain words as I may have missed them given that as a teacher my reading skills clearly wouldn’t cope with them in lower case!
Stephen, Pete is being honest and clear with you, so it is a shame that you should simply accuse him of lying.
Andy, Pete, whoever he is, is being duplicitous. I’m sad you can’t or won’t see that. Maybe it is because in claiming to be a ‘gay Christian’ you are living a lie yourself.
Not too sure of how I am being duplicitous.
I hold no position within Greenbelt other than attending a couple of years ago and enjoying the experience-have you ever attended?
Seriously, what is your response to Matthew 6:19 and any fear you may have about god judging you in the way you judge others? It is something that I am sure you have thought and I am genuinely interested in how you make sense of the actions of Jesus in this regard.
I would liken your hatred to that of the Pharisees of Jesus time rather than the welcoming love and grace of Jesus to those he considered so close to the kingdom of god if they would only open their eyes to see.
I am glad Andy wrote to this topic and admire his honesty, humility and honesty. I recognise this honesty and vulnerability as the kind of person god delights in and yet you speak to him as if he is the devil incarnate and you are someone who is clearly a man of god, aware of gods forgiveness and grace and love in your life and someone seeking to follow Jesus.
Where is the love?
I am sorry I assumed you were ignoring my posts, that was wrong of me. Thank you for clearing up the reason it took time with such grace.
You came across as Greenbelt staff, is why I asked.
I am cool with Matthew 6:19. And of course no end of people pass judgments on me, including you.
Don’t be silly about my approach to Andy. He can’t square his ‘out gayness’ with the Scriptures, so he avoids confronting that particular bit of sin in his life by going to places where he is affirmed in what he thinks he is. But God has a better plan for him, and I set it out in that article, if only he would be honest about his sin and repent and seek healing. God also has a plan for the devil, and there ain’t no healing for him.
Sorry I have taken a long time approving and answering you this time as well. It is, after all, Bank Holiday Monday.
Have a good evening.
Dear Stephen,
It’s made me sad to read this exchange. Have you been to greenbelt? It is a very diverse and open place. All voices would be welcome to join the debate.
Rachel
So long as they are left-liberal and politically-correct.
Thank you Stephen for your sensible replies to many of the comments which are so subtle in their distortion of the truth they can put a doubt in ones mind if not careful.
Some questions for “Christian” Greenbelt and its fellow travellers. Where is your concern for (1) the Iraqi Christians killed, tortured and persecuted from a 1 million plus community under Sadam Hussein to about 200 000 today still living in fear in “democratic” Iraq with the rest living who knows where away from their land of birth; (2) the Christians of Egypt currently being killed, kidnapped and persecuted as never before and (3) the Christians of Syria who are suffering persecution and death from their anti Assad liberators in towns captured by them? Sorry cant hear you!
Well whilst I continue to live, as you put it, a ‘lie’ as a gay
y Christian, when God stops blessing me, inspiring the life I lead and answering prayers I will be the first to let you know.
Keep speaking the truth Stephen. ‘There are non so blind as those who refuse to see’
God does not change His mind and true bible believing Christians must continue to speak out against the evil that is named liberalism.
Going back to original topic;
If the enemies of Israel laid down their arms today there would be peace tomorrow, if, on the other hand Israel laid down their arms today they would be destroyed tomorrow – period.
May the Holy Spirit continue to give you words of truth and wisdom and the boldness to speak them.
Bernard, If the enemies of Israel laid down their arms today there would be peace tomorrow, if, on the other hand Israel laid down their arms today they would be destroyed tomorrow – period.
Yes this is all to clear, there would be no Israel if they laid down their defense.
What they must not do is cave to their enemies, this just empowers them as we have seen in the giving of land before.
I see this tiny nation, surrounded by enemies as a physical expression of the church’s position, small, minority, under attack from all round not by physical enemies but by governments and rulers, by secularism, atheism, humanism, liberalism and atheism.
But,…..Hey nothing changes its always been this way, He is coming for a faithful remnant.
What we are witnessing here is the emergent church, that is caving to the worlds ways and wisdom, seeking position power and influence. Its pussey footing aroud with the evilone.
Lets prepare The bride and call others into the banquet.
What an appallingly bigoted and one-sided article. To be devastated by the inhumanity, intolerance and flagrant breaches of international law inflicted daily on Palestinians by Israel is simply to deplore Israel’s right-wing politics and gross disregard of the rights of Palestinians and their own obligations under international law. it has nothing whatsoever to do with Zionism (never quite sure what that is), Judaism or the history of three great faiths. It is also nothing to do with Israel’s right to exist (which is in any event a fait accompli), simply an expectation that Israel will stick to internationally agreed borders. And all that anti Kairos stuff mixed up with anti-Greenbelt, anti-gay, anti-peter Tatchell, anti-Lucy winkett, anti-anything/anyone who doesn’t subscribe to your one-dimensional, blinkered view of Christianity. What a sloppy mish-mash!
(BTW I’m a Quaker).
I would never have guessed.
Penny your list was a bit short.
End with anti emergent church, who have been led astray by wolves in sheeps clothing, who speak softly false doctrines and doctrines of demons. Check it out in your bible, those who fall away seeking those that tickle the ears. Having exchanged the Truth (which is the spirit and the word) for deceptions. You either get further away from His Word or draw closer. Please please seek for yourself, don’t accept everything because it ‘feels good’, or looks good to the eyes of man.
What a sad delusional ”christian” lucy winkett is, i would really love her to explain how she can go against the teaching of God ie the bible, what do people like that make of the bible and how do they not understand it, where does she get the notion that this is a good idea, what she is doing and appears to have done in the past tells me that she is 100% spiritually blind, is she even a saved born again christian?, but in saying that who knows what this girl gets up to behind closed doors and by that i mean what god she worships and in deed follows
May I ask why you put the word Christian in inverted commas when referring to this child of God? May I also ask if the moderators would have the guts to let the question stand?
Plenty for you to think about there Stephen. It has been a pleasure to debate with you. Until next Greenbelt..
You need to open your mind, Andy, shed the ‘I’m fine as I am’ mindset and start thinking and seeking the Lord yourself.
Stephen that response made me laugh out loud so much my friend in the next tent wanted to know why. Oh the irony.
Your biggest problem is you think you are just fine. It’s called ‘pride’. You are just like the Pharisee of Luke 18.
Again you bring laughter to my life. I thing you have far more in common with a Pharisee than I ever will. Enjoy life living in your black and white world. It makes life so simple when you can just condemn and dismiss those who disagree. I have enjoyed the debate though.
Of course you do, Andy. That’s because you are completely justified in your own eyes. Christ had no need to die for you. You are just fine as you are. I am not condemning you, just your attitudes and your pride.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Andy
I challenged you earlier on what you called ‘blatant apartheid’. I challenge you again to consider that we are all sinners (I think even Stephen might acquiesce to that!).
Whether we like it or not we are all born into sin, so in that sense it is not a lifestyle choice; Jesus called it slavery. “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.” (John 8.34(NIV), see also Romans 7:14 and 25).
When we come to understand and believe that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin then the power of God is at work in us to live according to His ways. However the old self still remains warring against God. The apostle Paul eloquently explains this in Romans 7 before coming to his conclusion in verse 25 and the glorious consequence in the first 4 verses of chapter 8, though I would recommend reading on a bit further to get a fuller handle on that. Only then does it become a lifestyle choice whether to follow God or our old sinful nature.
As you have said earlier ‘life is complicated’. I agree, but the Word of God is the way to chart a path for us through the tangled mess that is the world we live in…and that goes for the Middle East as well.
Blessings
Christopher
[…] « Now Greenbelt picks on Israel […]
Greetings Stephen, You are so consistent replying to these religious people. It must take up your whole day.
If you cannot offer bible verses, in context, what is left? Well you are doing great with both, and in love. While there’s life, there’s hope. Thanks
Hi Christopher, I had not spotted your earlier response so apologies for not responding before. The reference to apartheid is down to the human rights issues in both Israel and the West Bank. I am not anti Israel or Overly pro Palestinian in terms of how any settlement can be reached, my issue is with apartheid policies that quite openly pursues knowing full well that little will be challenged by the West beyond words anyway. Legitimate security concerns and the right to be safe are not in question, but on my visits we met many Palestinian Christians, Muslims and also Jews ranging from the more fundamentalists in illegal settlements to those campaigning for peace and human rights for all. The way West Bank citizens are treated, is nothing short of a disgrace. Theft of their land, forced demolition of their homes for settlement building, restricted water supplies to Palestinian villages to provide for gardens and swimming pools in settlements. I could go on. These issues need challenging because they are human rights abuses and as I said blatant discrimination and apartheid. Whatever the theological debates or political ones this is one thing Israel knows it can get away with. International law is flouted left right and centre. I have been accused of all sorts in this debate, I am a moderate and open minded guy and I hope you see as honest too. I welcome your contribution to the discussion.
Thanks for your response Andy.
I do not pretend that Israel comes out with flying colours in their dealings with the Palestinians, it just gets up my nose when people accuse them of apartheid with scant regard to what is being perpetrated and threatened by the other side.
Whilst I agree with the fundamental idea of Zionism as God promised and portrayed in the Bible, what concerns me is when politicians, the military and terrorists among others try and speed things up by doing God’s work for Him ignoring principles of mercy and justice.
It was my ninth Greenbelt this year and reading this article and the comments just makes me so sad as some of them were just plain mean and unnecessary. The situation in Israel-Palestine is far from black and white and Greenbelt makes that clear and it’s not a case of Israel is bad, Palestine is good. If you don’t believe me then you can download some of the talks from the Greenbelt website. One of ghe speakers was a Palestinian Christian whose family lost their home in the 1948 war gave a moving speech on his journey to loving his neighbour. Matthew 22.39 (‘love your neighbour’) we could probably agree is one of the hardest commandments to keep and Sami’s speech was beautiful and really unpicked that verse in a new way. Please at least listen to this voice from the Holy Land as it is worth hearing and hopefully you can see that Greenbelt is a good place that provides a safe place for people to explore their faith and find new ways to live their Christian faith. After all that is what we all should be working to do, to learn more about our faith everyday and to try and live out that faith as Jesus did. I’ve been to the Holy Land and seen and heard both sides of the story and I encourage people to do the same. Visiting the places that are soimportant in our faith was special, but meeting the living stones on both sides of the wall will stay with me for the rest of my life.
I am really not sure how inviting a contributor to a book advocating paedophilia (Greenbelt 2010 & 2012) and encouraging anti-Semitism (Greenbelt 2013) make Greenbelt a ‘safe place’ to find new ways to live their faith. Perhaps you could also explain, Helen, how Peter Tatchell advocating ‘gay marriage’ (Greenbelt 2012) makes Greenbelt ‘safe’ for young Christians developing their Christian faith?
Christian Aid is not Christian, it doesn’t give the gospel and is anti-Israel and wants to burden themselves with Zion and scatter Israel and part her land. Jesus is the Word made human.
The c of e vicars I met at the entrance were all off the wall, one was clearly not Christian he didn’t believe in the judgment, he mustn’t understand what the cross means, then.
You couldn’t refer to scripture as those who we wanted to reason with didn’t believe the Bible was true and wouldn’t hear it and told us to stop, talking over us.
Some folk were reasonable, those who actually had been to Israel or had businesses over there, however again, didn’t understand scripture or the Mandates, just as well we had ‘Jewish Refugees from Arab Lands’ pamphlets from Harif.org
I would dissuade anyone from going on any sort of camp, especially children. Parents are obliged to teach their own children
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates. Deuteronomy 6:4-9
Hello all,
do any of you have any views as to the actions being carried out in this video ?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqawmu_sacrificial-lamb-in-the-holyland_news
G
Sorry to take a while answering, Gazz. The video shows the ritual slaughter of a sacrificial lamb. There is a Jewish movement for the restoration of the temple and its sacrificial system and the Rabbis on the video are part of that. It’s sad they do not recognise that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial system.
Thanks for the reply Stephen. Would I be correct in assuming that no Jew recognizes the sacrifice of Jesus the Christ ? That no Jew believes Jesus the Christ to be the Messiah?
Regards
G
Not quite, Gazz. There is just as strong a movement – the ‘Messianic’ – which accepts Jesus Christ (‘Yeshua Hamasshiach’ in Hebrew) as Messiah and Saviour. Don’t let’s forget that is how the Church started – as a movement of Jews who followed Jesus and saw he had fulfilled the sacrificial system. See the website ‘Jews for Jesus‘
Thanks again Stephen.
It seems I have some homework to do. Little did I know of such a movement and the link you have provided will assist in my understanding of Christianity.
Kind Regards,
G
Helen I could not have put it better, your contribution is very welcome. It sums up why so many return to the festival each year, in a way like ‘coming home’. Thank you for your response Christopher, I know apartheid is a strong word and trust me, after an extensive visit to the holy land it makes me so sad to have to use it. The warm welcome and hospitality of the Palestinians in Bethlehem, Hebron and many other places moved me greatly and challenged my own prejudices to the core. I spoke to many locals and whilst opinions were divided on the future the majority simply wanted to live in peace and no longer experience the daily discrimination they face in all aspects of trying to live a normal life. They also understand that Israel had perfectly legitimate security concerns. Israel is also a special and fascinating country and I hope to return to both in the future. It is refreshing for you to be one who acknowledges that Israel is not behaving as it should. If you looked into the sheer extent of this beyond just security I think you would be genuinely shocked at what you would find. Can I also say Christopher that it is also refreshing to debate with you as unlike Stephen and others, you are respectful and polite instead of abrupt, dismissive and at times, bordering on offensive. Thank you.
I am totally fed up of people going on and on about the wrongness
Of homosexuality , I am regularly speaking to guys who are hooked
On porn, I am aware of guys who attend church but are
Having affairs and I am aware of ministers who struggle
With these issues but you bleat on and in about
The gay agenda etc
I don’t agree with the gay lifestyle but until
The church sorts out other equally major issues
Picking on Greenbelt is just plain wrong
I was there for first time last year
Did I see stuff I disagree with … Yes
But I can see stuff at church I disagree with too
I see people here who need to take the log out
Of their own eye before poking others
And by the way I had an affair some years ago
If the attitude of my pastor was the same as yours
Re dealing with the sinner stephen
Goodness only knows where I would have ended up
I am restored and redeemed and reaching out to
A hurting world
Let me get this straight. Because lots of things are bad, we are forbidden from speaking out about something that is bad?
no we are not forbidden, i never said that
i am however fed up of the whole homophobic attitude that exists in the church, i am not saying i agree with same sex anything
but i am saying that we are very quick to judge and in some cases condemn people in gay relationships while we rarely speak o0ut against adultery and pornography
your attitude in my opinion is not exactly “love the sinner hate the sin” its more
lets have a go at all things gay etc
But we have a thievophobic attitude and a murderophobic attitude and an adulteryophobic attitude and a pornophobic attitude despite what individuals might fall into. Why single out sodomy as the only sin we mustn’t mention?
No you just target the gay agenda as it easily distracts from other issues within your churches that you’d rather folk didn’t see. I too am grateful that like Iain I didn’t run up against those who want to hate when I was at my most vulnerable. Quick to condemn and exclude then you don’t have to deal with the human side of it.
Pathetic. Within whose churches, may I ask? That is a condemning spirit. Then you condemn those concerned for your eternal destiny as ‘those who want to hate’ and then have the brass neck to rush to accuse me of being ‘quick to condemn’. How judgmental is all that?
Your influence must be rubbing off on me already
No, mate, you will never find such wholesale condemnation of people (rather than their actions) here. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
If you say so, although the tone of your articles on the subject do tend to be very direct and give that impression. I know I comment flippantly at times but I do respect your position and beliefs even though I have long since moved on from having the same ones myself. Using terms such as sodomites is hardly going to encourage a serious response. Anyway, I hope you don’t mind the debate all the same.There are many who have followed our exchanges and wondered where I find the patience from, but for me it is a healthy way of unpicking our often entrenched viewpoints even if we will probably never agree on 99% of it!
I don’t say so (about the heart directing the mouth). The Bible says Jesus Christ says so. Do go and look it up.
Now Stephen and many others, this blog is one you really should take some time to read. Robert Cohen travelled with me and others to Israel and the West Bank a couple of years ago and writes from a Jewish perspective. He can put things far better than I, or many others could ever hope to.
http://micahsparadigmshift.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/when-will-there-be-jewish-kairos-moment.html
Greetings Stephen and others, just to say that ‘God’s wrath’ has delivered our wonderful, as you put it ‘sub-Christian’ festival a beautiful new site for 2014. Greenbelt’s exciting journey continues.