As a hotel chain founded and headed by Mormons, you would think Marriott Hotels would be a bastion of heterosexual, family-friendly orthodoxy.
But not a bit of it. Whatever makes money is the guiding principle for CEO Bill Marriott, even if it means going against his Mormon beliefs:
“Our church is very much opposed to alcohol and we’re probably one of the biggest sales engines of liquor in the United States”, Bill Marriott told Business Week. “I don’t drink. We serve a lot of liquor. You’re in business. You’ve got to make money,” he said. “We have to appeal to the masses out there, no matter what their beliefs are.”
It took until 2011 for Marriott to rid their rooms of on-demand pornography channels. The porn in Marriott’s rooms was an embarrassment for Mitt Romney when he ran for president of the United States in 2008. But the decision to take pay-for filth off the menu ended up not being one of morality or propriety, but money.
The chain attributed the move to the hotels’ inability to compete with adult entertainment on guests’ devices—a claim supported by hospitality market research showing a dip in revenue for in-room pornography.
But perhaps the strangest move of all has been Marriott’s aligning of themselves as a ‘gay friendly’ establishment.
It seems to have started when Marriott refused to donate to the campaign run by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in favour of Proposition 8, the Californian measure to strike down ‘gay marriage’.
Diane Brady of Business Week says: ‘As a result, when his church actively campaigned against same-sex marriage in California, neither Marriott nor the hotel chain donated any money to the cause. Instead, he stepped into the drama by publicly reinforcing his company’s commitment to gay rights through domestic partners benefits and services aimed at gay couples’.
Then, in 2012, a Marriott hotel in Chicago hosted the “International Mr. Leather Competition,” a leather fetish pageant. Some effort apparently went into prising the event, and its estimated 16,000 participants, away from the Hyatt Towers venue down the street.
As SunTimes put it, ‘To understand International Mr. Leather better, consider the way Chicago DJ Ron Geronimo described to Gopride.com the scene at the gatherin’s 2011 Black and Blue Ball: “Hot and sweaty sex . . . meets the best cheesecake in the world . . . meets hairy muscle daddy groove . . . meets rawhide leather.”’ Yuk.
In 2012, Marriott started offering discounts to homosexual guests in the US, according to Blaze, and a similar deal appears to have crossed the pond, with ‘Pride Packages‘ on a special ‘gay-friendly’ Marriott page offering a ‘promotional code’ for the ‘Out and About’ product. Families with children need not apply.
Finally, on 2nd June this year, 2014, Marriott launched their #LoveTravels venture, complete with a pro-gay propaganda video, shamelessly targeting the homosexual traveller. qz.com asks:
‘Why is Bill Marriott so careful to separate faith and business when it comes to LGBT consumers? In a nutshell, $202 billion.
‘That’s how big the global LGBT travel market is predicted to be this year (2014 – ed), up from $181 billion in 2013, according to industry analysts Out Now Global—with LGBT spending comprising 13% of all global travel spending. That 11% rise is more than double (pdf) the increase in world travel spending overall, which is expected to rise 4% to 5% this year. The number of US 18- to 34-year-olds self-identifying as LGBT has risen by more than 60% since 2007, and … gay men spend 11% more on “nonessential purchases” than their heterosexual counterparts.’
Whether it’s out of the need not to support the heresy of Mormonism, or of making it clear that ‘gay friendly’ is not good business, or just not enriching a greedy man with no principles, it seems like Marriott Hotels are a venue Christians need to avoid.
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The moral of this story seems to be… “It’s pays not to enforce your views onto other people.” Thankfully, this is a man who seems to respect others. I respect his views. I respect anyone who believes that gay marriage is against their religion. I don’t think that is homophobic. I am an atheist, but I respect the fact that others have a different point of view. I don’t think they are right, but I would never turn up at a church and tell them that they can’t worship. On the other hand, I don’t think anyone should be able to deny my right to marry my partner of 14 years. Being a good person is understanding that not everyone shares your view and respecting their right to disagree. Good on Marriott for showing such good Christian/Mormon/Islamic/Jewish (delete as applicable) values.
No, this is a man who will stop at nothing to make money. Of course you like him. He gives you a discount just for being perverted.
Well said!
Are you telling me that I am a pervert? Why have you attacked me when I’ve done nothing to warrent such behaviour? You don’t even know me. I would never make such an assumption about you.
Are you telling us you are not homosexual after writing ‘I don’t think anyone should be able to deny my right to marry my partner of 14 years’?
I am a gay. What has that to do with perversion? That’s a vile thing to say to someone you don’t know. I certainly do not share your views, but I would never attack you for having them. I respect your beliefs and lifestyle and hope that you can find peace somehow in a world that embraces diversity.
It’s not views we are talking about, it’s a variety of weird and unsanitary activities perverting God’s natural order.
I have peace, thanks, through Jesus Christ. But I should rather be a friend of God than a friend of the world.
As for ‘vile’, the word is used in connection with homosexuality in Judges 19:24 in the Bible, and also here, where it is used to describe homosexual desires, even before the Apostle gets on to activities:
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
The good news is that you do not need those desires. You do not have to ‘stay gay’.
People in the early church were released not just from the stain of sin but from the power of sin, even from homosexual desires:
1Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Respond if you want to know more about how to be free from homosexuality. Others have walked away from it. So can you.
Stephen your fixation with homosexuality does somewhat suggest that you are fighting your own battle with your sexuality?
I expect I’m fighting my own battle with inner tendencies to become a Muslim, an evolutionary biologist, a GM plant scientist, a feminist, a child-stealing social worker, a corrupt police officer, a sex educator and an EU bureaucrat as well, am I?
No, my dear old thing, some of us just have the guts to stand up and say when something is from the pit of hell.
I’m afraid not Stephen – you’re just another in a long line troubled souls who’s veneer of homophobia is hiding something within that scares them. Your research into ‘International Mr Leather’ seems to have gone a little further than is really necessary for the purpose of your article. I’m afraid you are far more transparent than you realise and maybe need to try and come to peace with yourself. Good luck.
Stick to the day-job, Doug.
Stephen’s response to the (fairly predictable) accusation,
“ I expect I’m fighting my own battle with inner tendencies to become a Muslim “
was masterly.
I am probably fighting my own battle with inner tendencies to be a theologian, genetic in my case going back to the 18th century. My ancestor even wrote a large number of forgotten hymns.
Perhaps one of the Greens made financial contributions to building the splendid 1889 mosque in Woking ?
It was great-great-uncle Mohammed Green. We don’t like to talk about him. You forced it out of me.
Well, I can understand that. My great-great-grandfather was drummed out of the Congregational Church for reasons my grandmother would not reveal, and which church records are extremely vague about. He and his hymn book are real, though. Look up Langport in the usual sort of place and you will see.
Actually, Rox, looking up ‘Langport’ yields nothing except place names and the actual name of a hymn. What was g-g-gd’s Christian name? Do you have an example of a hymn he wrote?
Unfortunately not Rox. There is a very special edge of anger, fear and loathing reserved by Stephen for the homosexuals. Cormac Murphy O’Connor also masked his inner demons in a similar way and this sense you are right that the observation (‘accusation’ is somewhat harsh) is predictable. Stephen knows but more importantly God knows. Whilst the smokescreen might baffle you it does not he who knows us best.
I’ll give you this, lad, you don’t give up, do you? But it’s become boring now.
Unfortunately not what, Rox ? Not masterly ? But it was. All the more so if there were any justification in Doug’s fears.
Rev James. He wrote and his son James Richard printed the music only, so it must have been intended to fit a hymnbook with words only (probably), which I have not been able to find . There are clues in some of the names given to the music, and some are noted as being psalm settings. I have photocopies of all 107 hymns, plus 6 “anthems” which do have words provided . I have just checked the numbers in Wikipedia ! But if you want to consult his book, you will have to go to the the British Library. Even the Bodleian in Oxford hasn’t got a copy. So great was his final misdemeanour, that there was no copy preserved in the family, although many other books from that period were. In fact, my father was told that there had been a “missionary” in the family (he did call himself a “home missionary”), but was NOT told that it was his own great-grandfather ! He imagined a distant uncle in exotic foreign lands, rather like Mohammed Green (whose details perhaps you should check !).
His setting of Psalm 136 is called “Gladness”, and it fits very well Milton’s “Let us with a gladsome mind”, which is loosely inspired by psalm 136.
As the Lord says:
[KJV] 1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
[KJV] 1Th 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
Oh! how I would love to see Christian carpenter, Christian plumber, Christian car repairman etc when I open the yellow pages…but alas no and I am in England…if not here then where can I hope to find such…how far have we strayed…
We do not need to advertise our professions with a Christian background to it, it is not necessary. Our lifestyles will speak about the love of God in us. Our actions gives the testimony and speaks louder of who we are than any kind of advertisement and there are a lot of Christians out there who have brought a lot of people to salvation through their professions.
Maybe not, but we should be supporting each other in business.
Yes I do understand where you are coming from, but on the other hand non-believers may find it uncomfortable to contact a Christian business hence they’ll feel they will be Bible bashed, or feel the business only welcomes Christians, therefore you will find that there will be no opportunity to witness to those in need of salvation; who may contact that Christian business.
This nation is of diverse religions and I have done businesses with people who have never advertised their businesses with a code of their religion(including Christians) but as I enter their premises I do have a knowledge of their beliefs, they do not preach to me but their actions had always spoken louder than words; for example. the music they are playing and the ornaments and pictures on the walls.
It is then up to me to decide whether I really want to do that kind of business with them or not. There are restaurants, food take away shops, supper markets, laundry and drycleaners, car mechanics, opticians, hair dressers and beauticians, I can go on, and on, and on, who are doing good business with the public and still have a certain religious background but never project their religion in their business advert, why? because they want to be open to the general public with their services. Jesus was in the public and with the community throughout His time on earth. He never preached segregation, He allowed everyone to come and listen to the gospel, whether they were Jews or Gentiles, whether they believed or not, and those who heard Him made their decision to follow Him or not to follow Him.
We as Christians need to be open and not to be seen as ‘segregation faith’ but as Christ did on earth we follow the same pattern.
I am not against Business Adverts with a code of Religion, but on the other hand it can also have it’s repercussions.
No, you are missing the point. It is nothing to do with preaching the Gospel to customers. It’s all about Christians preferring each other in business as this scripture encourages us to do:
Galatians 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Those of other faiths do it. They understand the importance of keeping the money within their community. Why don’t we? Look, some of the profits of the the Muslim fried chicken guy could be going to mujahideen in Syria or wherever as Zakat. Apart from that, he despises me as a kaffir, an unbeliever. Why should I give him my money?
I will never patronise a Mariott Hotel again.
As its written narrow is the road that leads to life and few find it. Also satan offered christ all the kingdom .s of the world if be would bow down and worship him. The marriot group has chosen money over righteousness its there loss. They will be those shouting lord lord but he will say away from me i never knew you
We must stand steadfast on the principles of our faith, we must not compromise! We shall be held accountable when we stand before the living God in the day of judgement!!!
Do not compromise what the Word of God says, do not cater to homosexuals!!!
Respectfully
Ivonne Carlson
Does this mean that you are in favour of discriminating against homosexuals ? I’m not well up in these things, but I suspect that might be illegal nowadays .Stephen would know.
I’m fascinated that you are called Ivonne. There is an Yvonne in my family who is officially Ivonne on paper, but the family belief is that the Registrar could not spell !
How we need people ,like Christian Voice, to be active and make the Christian ,Biblical stand. Yes, it does take courage and wisdom. We should preach the Gospel, and also be good citizens,good citizens cannot ignore the slide in society. God Bless you. Alan.
In pursuit of the root of all evil,Many have been led astray and it’s regrettable that It’s rare to find such bodies as Christian voice.
I support the Oasis Christian Bookshop in Wisbech, where I live. Not only do I get Christian items from there but I also have bought other books from them as well e.g. text books that I needed when I was on a computer course. I also get my photocopying done there as well, not only because Oasis is cheaper than anywhere else but because I like to give them a bit of trade.
There is another small shop in Wisbech which I will not go into because it deals with crystals and all that kind of thing and I just have a bad feeling about it.
When it comes to other tradesmen, finding a Christian one is difficult. However, non-Christian tradesmen do need salvation. By your actions towards them, having Bibles,Christian posters and other things such as Christian ornaments about the place your are making your stand that you are a Christian. You can also pray that God will give you the right opportunity and the right words to say to a tradesperson so to be a good witness for God to the person who is carrying out work for you.
Regarding hotels, I do not think I have ever stayed in a Marriot and I certainly will not be in the future. When it comes to hotels I do not normally stay in Christian hotels. This is because in my experience of them they tend not to be central enough like other hotels. A lot of them tend to be situated in the countryside/villages and are not easily accessible by public transport e.g. Brunel Manor near Torquay and The Pleasaunce in Overstrand Norfolk are typical examples of hotels that are hard to get to unless you drive there. How are you going to get about whilst you are in such locations when there is no transport? When I go on holiday I tend to go on Shearings coach holidays. I know a lot of other Christians that use Shearings as well. In fact I met a lovely Christian family when I was on one such holiday and my mum and I have remained good friends of theirs ever since! To the best of my knowledge there is no national Christian coach holiday operators in the UK that pick up where I live that I could use as an alternative. If there was a Christian version of Shearings available then I would use it. Again if you stay in a non-Christian hotel at least you can witness to other people. I have done so to the people sitting on my table when I am in a hotel.
Yes we should be trading with each other and supporting each other. Christians ought to have big families (just like Muslims, Jews etc). White Christians in particular seem to be losing the demographic battle in Britain. We must stand up for our heritage and pray that God will revive our Nation. We must promote family values, morals, and the only way to do this is to have Christians in positions of authority, such as in schools, the Government etc. Let’s elect Christian candidates from political parties that aren’t promoting ‘gay rights’ etc and destroying family values. If you’re a Christian put yourself up for election in local or national government. Remember, God is with you!
With all this when we do encounter non-Christians we should be loving and kind and promote to them faith in Jesus Christ. We need to pray especially that the White Britons accept Jesus as saviour again. Christianity has been in this Nation for nearly 2,000 years. Old habits die hard, so let’s not lose it now!
What about the Black Christian Britons?
We’ve got Stephen using God to support his homophobia and now you’re tossing in a tot of good old fashioned racism too. This really is going to be a bitter Christmas pudding.
John 13:34 but all I see here is division and hatred. The gate of the Kingdom is not open to those who would climb over others to reach it first.
You had better get over the fact that God regards the act of sodomy as an abomination and homosexual desires as ‘vile affections’, Doug. It’s not me who says (Lev 18:22) “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” It’s God.
I did consider whether Sierol’s comment could be construed as racist before approving it. It seems to me he/she is calling for white Christians to be as on-fire for righteousness and the Gospel as black – and for that matter Asian – Christians in this country. That’s not division, it’s exhortation.
Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
It’s all very well claiming that God regards sodomy as an abomination, yet you’re not prepared to speak out against sodomy between a man and a woman, only between two men. Perhaps you need to work on a bit more consistency in your arguments?
Hi Jane, Happy Christmas! It’s just as unnatural. And just why would a couple want to do that, given that the natural way is also the most obvious? Could there be an element of abuse involved, that a man inflicting that on a woman is in some way humiliating her? Do you think that might appeal to a certain sort?
Unlike this website, I don’t see it as my place to be telling people what they should and shouldn’t be doing behind closed doors. As for subjugation of women – I thought this website was in favour of that, given some of the articles you’ve published!
If Sierol had implied that black people were not such good Christians as white people, that would be racist, but if Stephen implies that white people are not such good Christians as black people, that’s perfectly OK .
Because I am one of the group being criticised.
Well Doug I suppose I will get it in the neck for this one.
I do wish people would stop using terms that makes things acceptable to the world. ie GAY . Lets use the correct term SODOMY !
It is NOT a Christian value to hold that it is okay to practise such a thing. And it is not okay to say it’s alright God loves you just as you are. That goes for any sin by the way. Before I go any further I am not a phobic anything nor am I wrestling with any hidden demons. My concern is that people like Marriot and those in Government etc who encourage and condone such things are responsible by their actions, for closing the door to your eternal life and their own eternal life if they did but know it. Your blood will be on their hands. Sodomy is a perversion, although not the only perversion of that nature. However, the wonderful things is that Yashua Son of the Most High God can you deliver from it as He can all other sin. And before any of you say differently there are many many testimonies to that fact if you will but look.
Mormans on the whole are NOT Christians anyway which one can see if one searches out their beliefs and that is why this man Marriot can do what he does !! I could go into the beliefs of Muslims ,Hindus, certain Jewish factions who will all condone Sodomy but again if ones takes the time one can understand why and how they can do so. BUT and it is a big BUT…….. Religion is NOT GOD and these things may well be acceptable to perverted men and women BUT it is NOT acceptable to The HOLY and RIGHTEOUS SOVEREIGN CREATOR of the UNIVERSE and the that’s the end of it……..
Neither by the way is the celebration of a Pagan rite such as Christ Massacre. Which is also not acceptable to God. So I hope you will also boycott all the so called Christian book shops who are pumping out Elvis Presley’s Blue Christmas, the cards etc and every supermarket and garden shop selling the trees and baubles condemned by God in Jeremiah 10:3-5. Which in fact makes one a laughing stock to Muslims and Marriot and others because they , all being of the same ilk know what it’s all about !!!! And for which one will also be answerable to God.
Jeremiah 10:3-5 is rather an obscure passage, badly translated in the Authorised Version. But even so, it can hardly refer to Christmas trees, as they was no Christmas when it was written. The modern Christmas tree was a German custom introduced to England by Prince Albert. Jeremiah knew nothing of Germany, and it is scandalous to imply that Prince Albert and Queen Victoria were not Christians (but Kathleen is). A major difference is that the modern Christmas tree is not a major item like what is described — they are never decorated with gold and silver and seriously revered. The closest thing to worship associated with them is singing carols round them, such as Holy Night, which is directed at the “hochheilige Paar”, not at the tree .
What the passage really means is clear from the New English Bible :
“For the carved images of the nations are a sham,
they are nothing but timber cut from the forest,
worked with his chisel by a craftsman;
he adorns it with silver and gold,
fastening them on with hammer and nails,
so that they do not fall apart.
They can no more speak than a scarecrow in a plot of cucumbers;
they must be carried for they cannot walk.
Do not be afraid of them : they can do no harm,
and they have no power to do good.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Christmas trees, Kathleen.
A Christmas tree is not a carved image with silver and gold nailed to it.
And where do you find Christmas cards condemned by God ?
You seem to know an awful lot about what God thinks, with your “NOT acceptable to The HOLY and RIGHTEOUS SOVEREIGN CREATOR of the UNIVERSE and the that’s the end of it”.
If the Pope claimed to know exactly what is acceptable to God, I suspect that you would be the first to criticise him for it, using some quite harsh phrases. Roman Catholics, incidentally, are sometimes inclined to nail gold and silver to carved images …. But that’s another story .
How can someone who alleges to be Christian treat fellow human beings in such an unchristian way?
I’m a heterosexual and an atheist but have studied the Bible enough to know that according to it’s teachings Jesus said let him without sin cast the first stone (John 8:7).
Our society has, quite rightly, accepted that people are born homosexuals. It’s not a crime.
Why can’t two people of the same gender have a loving relationship and why would anyone seek to deny them their basic human right to live their lives as they want?
We should instead concentrate on stopping real crimes such as, for example, domestic violence, rape and child cruelty. Wouldn’t that make more sense Stephen?
Yes, the Lord upheld the law on stoning for adultery, calling for witnesses with clean hands, ie not involved in that particular sin, to cast the first stone. And he found none.
It isn’t remotely ‘Christian’ to let society slide into a hell of our own making. It’s Christian to speak out as the prophets were told to do and as Christ did himself:
John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Not one geneticist would agree that people are ‘born homosexual’. Our society has not ‘accepted’ that at all, except maybe in the realms of the elite who are set on destroying the Christian moral foundations of our land.
Of course two people of the same gender can have a loving relationship. A father and a son, two brothers, men in battle can have a loving relationship. There is nothing wrong in that. What is wrong – and pathological – is sexualising and so corrupting that relationship.
That’s an interesting little list of ‘real crimes.’ Domestic violence is in the news at the moment, I suppose, and some dreadful stories are coming out of Sinjar right now. But take your argument further and it looks like you are arguing to do away with all crimes against property, public morality and for that matter motoring offences. Weird.
Jesus refers to “eunuchs who have been so from birth.” This terminology (“born eunuchs”) was used in the ancient world to refer to homosexual men. Jesus indicates that being a “born eunuch” is a gift from God.
Some Christians confidently assert that God did not create homosexual people “that way.” This is important because they realize if God did create gays “that way,” rejecting them would be tantamount to rejecting God’s work in creation. In pressing their “creation order” argument, some Christians are fond of saying, “God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!” To bolster their position, they often cite Jesus’ words in Matthew 19:4-5, where he responds to a question about whether divorce is permissible:
“Jesus answered, ‘Have you not read that the One who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh”? Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate.’ ”
From these words, some Christians draw the conclusion that heterosexuality is the creation norm and, thus, heterosexual marriage is the only legitimate way for people to form romantic relationships. Ironically, Jesus’ own words in this very same passage refute these conclusions.
As the dialogue continues, Jesus’ disciples are disturbed by his strict teaching on divorce. The disciples say that if divorce is not a ready option, perhaps it would be best for a man not to marry a woman. Jesus responds:
“Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” (Matthew 19:11-12)
Here Jesus identifies three classes of men who should not marry women. Taking his categories in reverse order, first, there are those who have made themselves “eunuchs” for the kingdom of heaven, i.e., those who foreswear marriage to better serve God. Second, he mentions those who have been “made eunuchs by others,” an apparent reference to castrated males. But Jesus mentions a third category — eunuchs who were born that way. Some might argue that Jesus was referring to males born without testicles, but this would be extremely rare. Moreover, this interpretation ignores how the term “born eunuchs” was used in other literature of the time.
In the ancient world, including ancient Jewish culture (as reflected in the Talmud), “natural” or “born” eunuchs were not associated with missing testicles. Rather, they were associated with stereotypically effeminate characteristics and behaviour (just like modern gay men), As a reasonably informed person of his time, Jesus would have been aware of this common view of eunuchs. Yet he very matter-of-factly asserts that some people are simply born that way. The implication of his statement is profound — God created gay people the way they are! Jesus says so. Jesus feels no need to “cure” these born eunuchs. He speaks no words of condemnation. Rather he lists people born gay alongside another honoured class (eunuchs for the kingdom), and accepts them as a natural part of God’s creation order.
Thus, when Matthew 19 is read as a whole, we see Jesus teaches that most people are created for heterosexual marriage. (We too accept this as God’s predominant creation paradigm.) But, unlike some modern Christians, Jesus does not see this as the only honourable way to live. He acknowledges that some human beings have been created by God to follow a less common, but equally legitimate path. There are some who have been eunuchs from birth — made that way by God.
There is a lot wrong with this argument.
Firstly, you need to establish that a eunuch meant a homosexual in the ancient world, not just assert it. It is far from true that a gelded male becomes homosexual, so the link will be hard to make.
Secondly, a ‘eunuch’ could mean someone with physical as opposed to an emotional disability. And as it does mean someone with a disability, whether physical or emotional, this argument does not really help advance ‘gay rights’ anyway.
Thirdly, there is nothing in the Lord’s teaching to overturn the Bible’s prohibition on homosexual activity, which we must remember the Lord Jesus, as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, wrote.
Fourthly, we have the witness of the Apostle Paul, writing after the Lord’s words, sophisticated and knowledgeable and stating that homosexual desires are ‘vile affections’.
Fifthly, we have many of today’s homosexuals engaged in overtly masculine behaviour, not the slightest bit gelded (except in the emotional sense, I guess).
Sixthly, your comments leave those who choose homosexuality (eg the ‘political lesbians’) up a creek.
Seventhly, the decision to lead a celibate life, whether to serve God or from an inability to consumate a marriage, does not necessarily mean you can claim such individuals as ‘gay’.
Eighthly, the idea that this teaching of the Lord supports today’s ‘gay’ movement, with its aggressive political demands, its promiscuity, its coarseness, its indecency, its obscenity, its sexual depravity – by any standard – is ludicrous.
Apart from that …
” For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. ” Matthew 19:12 AV
This was the best that the best 17th century scholars in Oxford, Cambridge, and London could produce from the “original” texts then available.
In the middle of the 20th century, very similar bands of scholars with more information available and modern readers in mind expressed it as well as they could in this manner :
” For while some are incapable of marriage because they were born so, or were made so by men, there are others who have themselves renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let those accept it who can”.
Matthew 19.12 New English Bible, approved by a range of British Churches from the Baptist Union to the Roman Catholics, including Church of England, Quakers, United Reformed, etc.
With all due respect to you as human beings, you people are absolutely disgusting. Please stop attempting to hide your bigotry behind the pretence of your religious ideals. The reason that it is written in your bible that man must not lie with another man is because in those ancient times, is because in those times rich Roman men would BUY male slaves as sex slaves to fulfil their sexual needs. This was written in the bible TO PROTECT THESE MEN FROM BEING BOUGHT, AND SEXUALLY ABUSED. As the world is becoming more progressive we are finally recovering from the obsession with taking select extracts from the bible and taking them completely literally, completely disregarding the fact that 2000 YEARS HAVE GONE BY AND NONE OF THOSE PRACTICALITIES THEN APPLY ANY LONGER. Above all, your God decrees that you must show love and acceptance for all mankind. Your spreading of self-righteous blindness goes against all that your God would preach to you.
How dare you all tell me that the love that I have for my girlfriend is wrong? It is not my love, and my wish to remain with someone that I love and care for for the rest of my life that is wrong, but your hatred, lack of compassion and blinkered bigotry. I live my life with values of love, acceptance and kindness, and aim to leave a top university to go on to travel and work with charities, helping others. Which is a darn sight more than you are doing, sat alone behind your computer screens spreading your awful values to impressionable people. LGBTQ+ relationships are about more than sexuality or the act of sex, unlike YOUR relationships which clearly REVOLVE around sex. This obsession with sex, with abstinence from sex, with children from sex, this all proves who are the true “‘perverted” ones. We are all free to have our own opinions, but please, please do not advocate your hatred and inhumanity on the internet where anyone can stumble across it. Abhorrent homophobia like yours can bring a young person to the acts of self-hatred and even suicide, and in many cases this has been the result of such acts of hatred and discrimination. Bigotry, and discrimination, and homophobia, they kill . A person does not choose their sexuality, nor can they change it. And those who believe this to be true are simply lying to themselves. Spread love, acceptance, positivity and kindness to those of all races, genders, sexualities, backgrounds. I send you all love, and hope that behind the corruption and the bigotry that you have displayed, you can find in yourselves some compassion and sense of humanity.
Well! So we have ‘you people are absolutely disgusting’ and then ‘I live my life with values of love, acceptance and kindness’ and ‘I send you all love’. Whatever.
You have the cart before the horse. We oppose both the gay rights agenda and homosexual acts not because of ‘bigotry’ but because both scripture and reason oppose them.
‘in those times rich Roman men would BUY male slaves as sex slaves to fulfil their sexual needs’. You seriously think that does not go on in the male homosexual network today?
On this you are right, one purpose of God saying ‘thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman’ is to protect vulnerable young men from being abused.
‘the world is becoming more progressive’? Dream on. It’s becoming more crass, more coarse, more immoral, more decadent by the minute.
‘your God decrees that you must show love and acceptance for all mankind’. Er, where? On the contrary, God says:
Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
And the Lord Jesus says:
John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
And: John 15:18 If the world hate you (that’s believers), ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
So the minute we say you are doing evil you will hate us because you hate the truth which would set you free.
Young people, or anyone tempted in the homosexual life, need to know not to self-identify as ‘gay’, that same-sex desires are described in the Bible as ‘vile affections’, but that Jesus Christ has power to release anyone from them.
Yes, the love that you have for your girlfriend is wrong the moment you sexualise it. Why are you sexually attracted to another woman? What was your relationship like with your mother? And with your father?
However you became that way, know this: you don’t have to stay like it. Others have walked away from lesbianism. So could you.
Stephen, all niceties aside, go **** (edited) yourself you precious bigot. My relationship with my girlfriend doesn’t have to be sexualised, you’re right. And if I wanted, I could love my girlfriend as a partner without ever requiring sex from her and that would still be love. My relationship with my mother and father is a normal one, and they have in no way influenced my romantic feelings for anyone. Others have not walked away from lesbianism, others have been forced to deny themselves and who they truly are for fear of being persecuted by people such as yourself.
I hope that one day you can open your eyes to the hatred that you are spreading and I pity you in your state of blindness. The only thing that is immoral. is your incredible ability to pick and choose from what you want to interpret from your bible and use your faith as a means of vocalizing intolerance and malevolence towards others.
As a side note, the VAST majority of sex trafficking etc involves heterosexual females, so your point there is sadly quite invalid, and if you actually cared for the well-being of others as you claim to do, you would not show such cruelty to other people based on who they are, which is something that they cannot change. You Stephen, may change your opinion on other people and I hope that you do manage to cure your homophobia and fear of anything that is not like yourself, but people cannot change their sexualities, and nor would I ever want to.
Stephen, if a 16 year old girl can appreciate that your hate-crimes which you spread are wrong, I implore you to see yourself that people are not wrong, or evil based on who they love. There are bigger issues in the world today; poverty, world hunger, disease,drought and so on. How about we focus on them eh?
Check out Charlene Cothran’s story. She wasn’t ‘forced to deny herself’, or in ‘fear of being persecuted’. She ran a high-profile lesbian magazine and she actually found her true self:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/marchweb-only/112-52.0.html
Or Miranda Pettit, who says ‘there is always hope in Christ’:
http://www.hopeforwholeness.org/healing-from-homosexuality-through-jesus-christ-articles/10-years-a-reflection-by-miranda-pettit/
Or you could look at the story of Yvette Schneider: http://exchangeministries.org/?page_id=239
I am not picking and choosing from scripture at all. I have just started to read through the whole Bible again this year, in order to see deeper into the mind of God.
Trafficking for prostitution is evil. So your point is …?
The fact that others have walked away from lesbianism shows that people can change, so this deterministic stuff of ‘cannot change’ is at odds with all we know of life stories and psychology. People can change their ‘sexuality’ but only if they really want to.
With the greatest of respect, the opinions of a sixteen-year-old girl are no better than those of anyone else, and they may lack a bit of maturity.
There are indeed bigger issues in the world today, but as I recall, it was you who started this particular conversation, so it must be quite a big issue for you.
Oh, and do try to write without resorting to stupid accusations and without using bad language, eh? I had to edit your opening (no doubt ‘peace & love-filled’) diatribe.
I support you brother but although it is good to proclaim the truth in God’s word I think it is flogging a dead horse on this issue. Some scriptures come to mind: Mt 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Ac 28:26 “saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; And seeing you will see, and not perceive.
So when we are mocked and castigated by the mockers, scoffers, atheists and PC brigade they should bear in mind the saints are ….
Ps 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all His saints. Praise ye the LORD
When I became a Christian I gave up my right to judge ANYONE – ‘Judge not, lest ye be judged’ – as for the Scriptural references, we can find anything to back up an argument, so why aren’t Christian women keeping their heads covered, men growing their hair long, and to call someone a ‘fool’ can result in hellfire. Everything needs to be taken in the context and culture of the time. We are Christians because we are SAVED from our own sins, which are not regarded as better or worse than anyone else’s; they all lead to death without Jesus. If you want to carry on arguing your judgements, the only people affected are the ones searching for God – who is LOVE. They don’t find that in our churches very often due to the judgements of redeemed sinners.
OK, so we won’t see you applying to be a magistrate, then. Best leave a responsibility like that to the unbelievers, eh?
To be serious, it is only someone’s eternal destiny you are not allowed to judge. You have not given up your right to exercise discernment, or to advise a friend not to engage in destructive behaviour. Indeed, if you keep quiet, you will be judged yourself:
Ezek 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.
The word you quote needs to have some context:
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
It’s a warning against hypocrisy. The Lord is not saying ‘never pass comment on anyone else’s actions’! He is saying: ‘Straighten out your life and then speak prophetically into your brother’s’. You are saying what the world says: ‘Leave the plank in your own eye and forget about the speck in your brother’s eye’. Convenient for those who make money from sin, eh?
You are most certainly allowed to judge the actions of others:
1Cor 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
You cannot in the Bible find ‘anything to back up an argument’. You read scripture to find and to know the mind of God.
And then, as our gracious Lord says, you are in a position to:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Why not try to be Christlike? If you were, you could say to the unbelievers, as he did:
John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
I must say,I think about gay stuff all the time. Thoughts that involve me biting the pillow. Thoughts I put into practice lots and lots. I’m gay,mega gay,mega atheistic gay.
But why do bigoted straight folk think about gay stuff,hmmmm,odd that.
And we think about Islam, and injustice, and abortion, and family breakdown and gm crops and the destabilisation of the middle east.
About lots of things which challenge the righteousness to which God calls the human race, in fact.
But we also think about healing, and food banks, and evangelism and salvation as well.