The Eurovision Song Contest sank to a new low on Saturday night as a bearded homosexual drag artist swept to an overwhelming win.
Tom Neuwirth, appearing in a diamante dress as ‘Conchita Wurst’, sang the Austrian entry ‘Rise like a Phoenix‘. ‘Conchita’ means ‘little shell’ in Spanish but is also Spanish vulgar slang for a part of the female anatomy. A ‘Wurst’ is a German sausage. The German expression “es ist wurst” means “it doesn’t matter”, which sentiment Neuwirth applies to his lifestyle.
Whether or not other countries appreciated his innuendo-laden name, the Austrian took the Eurovision crown in Copenhagen with 290 points compared to 238 points for runner-up the Netherlands and then delivered a politicised speech.
The song came first, with 12 points awarded, in Belgium, Finland, Greece, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, The Netherlands and the United Kingdom. Voting in most countries was a mixture of a five-man expert ‘jury’ and a popular text vote. Across Europe, the popular vote was more inclined towards Austria than the expert panels. Only Armenia, Belarus, Poland and San Marino awarded Neuwirth ‘nul points’.
In Norway, two judges, both singers themselves, put the song in seventh place, possibly thinking some work on intonation would not come amiss, while two others, music journalists, awarded it first place. The fifth – a Muslim – placed it seventeenth, costing the Austrians two points. It is fair to say that the judges who placed it first and seventeenth understood what was going on. So, probably, did the Finnish, where each judge and the people put ‘Rise like a Phoenix’ in first place. But Slovenia? (All voting for Austria below.)
During the voting, any points awarded to Russia were booed, either because of the Ukrainian crisis or because of the Russian Federation’s opposition to homosexuality. As Ukraine and Russia did actually award each other some points, it was probably the latter. However, even that politicisation paled into insignificance as the Austrian entry settled at the top of the leader board.
After the voting, a triumphant Neuwirth said the win was a victory for “all people who believe in the future of peace and love and tolerance,” crying for the cameras. Promptly ditching peace, love and tolerance he raged in conclusion: “We are unity, and we are unstoppable!” VIDEO
When asked what he would tell Russian President Vladimir Putin, who last year signed a law banning “gay propaganda”, Neuwirth replied: “I don’t know if he’s watching, but if so, I’ve made clear, we’re unstoppable.”
The song’s chorus spoke of rising from the ashes. (Full lyrics here.) Sodom was of course destroyed by fire, and In mythology, a phoenix is an immortal bird that, when it dies, bursts into flames and is reborn from its own ashes. The chorus:
Rise like a phoenix
Out of the ashes
Seeking rather than vengeance
Retribution
You were warned
Once I’m transformed
Once I’m reborn
You know I will rise like a phoenix
But you’re my flame
Whatever the last line means, both the chorus and Neuwirth’s triumphalism after his win remind us of the aspirational essay of ‘gay revolutionary’ Michael Swift which appeared in a February 1987 edition of ‘Gay Community News’ in Australia. ‘All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked … legislation will be passed which engenders love between men … the museums of the world will be filled only with paintings of graceful, naked lads … the family unit will be abolished … churches who condemn us will be closed … one of the major requirements for a position of power in the new society of homoeroticism will be indulgence in the Greek passion … We shall be victorious … tremble, hetero swine,’ he ranted.
In Sodom, ‘all the men of the city’ surrounded Lot’s house demanding carnal knowledge of his guests. It is highly unlikely that all the men of Sodom were homosexual, but there was clearly overwhelming acceptance of the vice of sodomy among both people and rulers of Sodom. It appears that Europe, particularly Western Europe, is farther down the road to Sodom that many of us might have thought – or dreaded.
Psalm 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
VOTING:
Placing by Juror 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Combined Jury Placing, Popular Vote Placing, Combined Placing, Points Awarded:
Albania 100% jury voting. 11 6 4 4 6 6 5
Armenia: 23 21 23 24 23 24 2 14 0
Azerbaijan: 24 24 23 24 23 24 3 10 1
Belarus: 24 25 20 23 22 23 4 14 0
Belgium: 7 6 1 7 1 3 3 1 12
Denmark: 4 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 8
Estonia: 10 11 15 9 2 8 8 7 4
F.Y.R. Macedonia:18 25 16 4 11 14 5 8 3
Finland: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 12
France: 2 3 1 2 17 4 2 2 10
Georgia (Popular vote only): 2 10
Germany: 9 13 11 13 12 11 1 4 7
Greece: 1 2 4 5 3 1 2 1 12
Hungary: 8 9 5 16 11 8 2 2 10
Iceland: 2 2 1 5 4 2 3 2 10
Ireland: 3 3 1 2 3 1 3 1 12
Israel: 2 2 3 1 1 1 2 1 12
Italy: 2 3 3 3 6 3 2 1 12
Latvia: 17 12 13 11 7 10 5 5 6
Lithuania: 1 1 3 3 7 1 5 2 10
Malta: 14 4 13 11 16 9 1 2 10
Moldova: 3 9 4 2 3 4 4 4 7
Montenegro: 18 19 18 19 17 17 5 9 2
Norway: 16 1 1 7 7 4 2 2 10
Poland: 24 18 7 18 16 19 4 11 0
Portugal: 9 4 20 1 1 6 1 1 12
Romania: 14 7 9 5 7 7 2 3 8
Russia: 7 10 9 21 9 11 3 6 5
San Marino 100% jury vote. 5 22 13 3 24 14 0
Slovenia: 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 12
Spain: 3 1 2 5 6 2 2 1 12
Sweden: 2 2 2 4 1 1 1 1 12
Switzerland: 6 1 8 1 1 1 1 1 12
The Netherlands: 5 3 1 1 2 1 1 1 12
Ukraine: 5 3 3 5 5 3 5 3 8
United Kingdom: 1 8 9 2 4 3 3 1 12
(The voting appears arcane, but in case you are wondering, if the jury and the voters violently disagree which song should be first, the song which they both put second – or even third – can end up first when the votes are combined – as happened in Belgium, Italy, Spain and the UK.)
Members of the jury of the United Kingdom
J1 Caroline Vanessa Grant
Date of birth: 17 August 1965
Profession: Vocal coach/TV Presenter/Public Speaker
Carrie Grant is one of the best known vocal coaches in the United Kingdom. Her impressive client list includes Take That, The Spice Girls and The Saturdays. Carrie also represented the UK in The Eurovision Song Contest in 1983 as part of the trio Sweet Dr
J2 Stephen Allen
Date of birth: 4 September 1965
Profession: Music producer, keyboard player, musical director, arranger
Steve Allen has over 35 years’ experience within the music industry having written, produced and arranged for acts such as The Trammps, The Temptations and Eurovision stars Katrina And The Waves.
J3 Candice McKenzie
Date of birth: 7 June 1982
Profession: DJ and Event Organiser
Candice McKenzie is an established DJ from London and recipient of two BEFFTA awards, Female DJ of the Year 2009 & DJ of the Year 2010. Candice has DJ’d for top brands and all over Europe.
J4 Gus Gowland
Date of birth: 31 July 1981
Profession: Writer / Actor / Composer
Gus Gowland is a writer and actor from London, UK. Gus has written a brand new musical, Pieces of String directed by Craig Revel Horwood which will hit theatres in October 2014.
J5 Laura Wright
Date of birth: 17 June 1990
Profession: Mezzo soprano signed to Decca, Universal
Laura Wright is a Mezzo Soprano. At the age of 15, Wright won the BBC Radio 2 Chorister of the Year award for female voice. Laura has sold over one million records so far and in 2010 Laura was nominated for a Classical Brit Award.
Members of the jury of Norway
J1 Ahmed Fawad Ashraf
Date of birth: 29 November 1984
Gender: Male
Profession: Music and culture journalist
Works as a culture and Music journalist for Norwegian Broad sheet newspaper Aftenposten.
J2 Jonas Brenna
Date of birth: 17 June 1981
Gender: Male
Profession: Head of publishing
Jonas Brenna is a producer With Aftenposten-tv, the web page of Aftenposten.
J3 Jan Thomas Holmlund
Date of birth: 9 February 1983
Gender: Male
Profession: Entertainment Journalist
Jan Thomas Works for one of Norway’s largest tabloid newspapers, Dagbladet and has covered ESC on site several years.
J4 Rannveig Sundelin
Date of birth: 6 February 1976
Gender: Female
Profession: Vocalist
Rannveig is the singer in a big brass band and is also the spokesperson against Racism for the Soccer Club Vålerenga.
J5 Monica Harmonica Johansen
Date of birth: 11 October 1979
Gender: Female
Profession: Artist, songwriter and DJ
Monica, or Miss Harmonika aka Minnie Oh, is a well known artist, DJ and songwriter in Norway.
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This is so messed up. I was horrified when I saw this the other night. The world has gone utterly mad with political correctness. People are scoffing at the Russians for taking objection to this, but thank God that some people are actually standing up for normality and decency! It almost makes me want to move over to Russia so that I can raise my children safe away from this kind of degenerate propaganda. This is indeed a sign of spiritual and cultural decline in the West.
There are still more than ’10 righteous men in Britain’. The righteous in Christ – probably millions – and those The Father has given Him, none will be lost – He has the victory.
When He who restrains is removed, wickedness will reign and be “Unstoppable.”
God has made Christians His temple. Therefore when we are caught up to be with Christ, He who restrains, will be removed – no more Christian influence to stop the swaggering decadence.
Keep the faith, keep consistent and the reward will be beyond conception.
Well, as a member of the Christian Peoples Alliance Party who is standing on a traditional marriage ticket in both my local council elections and in the London Region for the EU Parliament I consider myself one of the Ten Righteous Men – humbly.
I don’t think you can really stop the juries and the populations voting for the song they like best. Europe isn’t like the Eastern Bloc used to be under communism. It’s up to them to choose.
I don’t know why you should pick out Slovenia as being ignorant of Austria. It used to be a province of Austria, and there are many indigenous Slovenes living in the neighbouring province which is still in Austria. Slovenian popular music sounds decidedly Austrian (with oompah bands), in fact Slovenia must be more influenced by Austria than by any other country. This is partly why it broke away so decisively from Serbia-based Yugoslavia, and rapidly joined the European Union (until very recently, the only part of Yugoslavia to do so).
It certainly is up to them to choose. And their choice has revealed a lot about Europe today.
Thanks for the explanation about Slovenia. So that’s the reason.
It’s our use of Latin names (like Bohemia for what is now most of the Czech Republic) which tends to disguise such things. If you ever read boys’ adventure stories written in sort of Sherlock Holmes times, you might have come across Carinthia and Carniola, both with Ruritanian dukes probably. Carniolia is Slovenia. Carinthia is still the English name for the adjoining province in Austria.
Even less obvious is that the famous Lippizaner horses which are used by the Spanish Riding School (in Vienna, and there’s a clue) are bred and trained at Lipica in Slovenia. (Pronounced the same as “Lipiza” in German).
When I was in Slovenia in 1989, shortly before the troubles started, it was the most religious place I had ever been to, judging by the numerous little shrines with candles and flowers (the flowers often left in beer cans). When I say candles, they had special little lamps, which were also used at purely Communist shrines to dead partisans. This suggested to me that human nature is very difficult to change .
Voting for Eurovision has *always* been political – it’s just far more obvious this year. It’s a shame, as it meant the best song didn’t win.
I feel there is one subject regarding this debacle that people are overlooking , namely occult influence .
Some may recall the Phoenix symbology was used at the London Olympics .
Many are unaware of the Thelemic legacy of the self professed Beast Alistair Crowley that is coming to the fore .
I’m talking of the tenets ” Love under will ” and ” Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law ”
Crowley promoted homosexuality and paedophilia stating that such acts facilitated the contact with spirits .
As mankind continues on his quest to be ” god like ” he is promoting liberalism as the new age of enlightenment .
It is a complete reversal of polarities .
We as followers of the creator know that mankind is in spiritual darkness and it is only the light of HIS truth that guides and protects us ” for ALL have fallen short of the glory of GOD ”
This is not the first time a drag queen has won eurovision.
It happened a few years ago when Israel won, which I found more shocking than this year’s result.
All this year’s Israeli judges put Austria in the top 3 placings.
I’m amazed that The Netherlands gave them 12 points; since they were in second place & their vote increased Austria’s majority.
The UK judges were less favourable towards Austria (in terms of the placings they awarded) than many countries.
I haven’t watched eurovision since it became politicised many years’ ago.
This year the BBC provided an excellent alternative singing contest on Sunday afternoon: The school choir competition on Songs of Praise, won by Highgate School.
Despite being a supporter of Israel – I’m not surprised, as their Tel Aviv ‘Sodomite’ (ie so-called Gay Pride March) Parade is usually well-attended.
I don’t know, that sounds a bit conspiracy theory-like to me. I see this more as an indication of severe moral decline due to society’s increased secularisation. Our modern culture is so superficial and materialistic (something actively bolstered by the state and the media) that people have forgotten about God, they don’t fear or love Him anymore, they care only about themselves and their own pleasure, the here-and-now, and aren’t concerned at all about reigning in their hedonistic behaviour. It is sad. I’m not saying that the devil isn’t behind all of that but I’m not sure the song was deliberately written with an occult message behind it.
sister Laura
Is it not written that as a man thinkineth so he becomes ?
Does not YAHWEH’s Word state that sin starts with a thought which leads to esire resultung in the act ?
Does not YAHWEH’s Word state that the wicked constantly conspire against righteousness ?
How can you say it sounds a bit conspiracy theory ?
Do we not wrestle against spirits of wickedness and principalities ?
Woe unto them who call wicked good and good wicked
Awake from your spiritual slumber sister
It could just be plain old-fashioned hedonism, brother. Perhaps we shall never know.
[…] very own Stephen “Birdshit” Green was also peeved by Wurst’s win, saying “the Eurovision Song Contest sank to a new low” and informing his crackpot Christian […]
Hi Stephen,
What are your thoughts about Israel (the “Holy Land”) awarding all 12 points to Austria?
Mike.
Abortion is legal in Israel, Sodomy is legal, same-sex cohabitation is recognised, ‘gay pride’ is allowed in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Are we that surprised by the Israel vote? The land may be holy, but the people have sadly become westernised. They need a prophet!
Yet another clear example of how the devil’s servants are using every avenue to promote their filth.
However, God is not mocked, these perverts will have to give account to Him; I can only hope that, before they die, they repent of their vile perversions.
the words revulsion and abomination come to mind when I look at pictures of this “man”.
the old Roman Empire fell because it was totally wrapped up in immorality and hedonism.and unable to resist waves of people with determination to bring in a new new social order . Looks like the new Roman Empire is in the same place with Islam ready to take over with its new social order
No wonder Boko Haraam reject any thing Western when they and millions of fellow Muslims see this sort of thing honoured, promoted and enjoyed by the “Christian” western world.
the leader of the biggest church in England is quoted as saying: Children at Church of England schools must be taught to “revere” and “honour” gay and lesbian people. Revere? Honour? for doing what? The UK and Europe is truly post Christian.
A friend who went to Nepal as a civil engineer and missionary told me that the locals thought that going off to Katmandu to get drunk and spend time in brothels was Christian because other western european expatriates did so.
I think that this is because of the blindness of the Church since the 1960s, which failed to realise that there was an intent to subvert society with a cultural revolution led by the Frankfurt School of marxism
To further the advance of their ‘quiet’ cultural revolution – but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future – the School recommended (among other things):
1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family
One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ – the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:
• attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
• abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
• abolish all forms of male dominance – hence the presence of women in the armed forces
• declare women to be an ‘oppressed class’ and men as ‘oppressors’
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation thus: ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.’
You can make up your own mind whether it was a deliberate conspiracy or not, but look at where we are now in western europe and compare it to the aims listed above.
Others have attributed similar lists to other ‘cultural Marxists’ such as Antonio Gramsci and Georg Lukacs. I’m not sure how the establishment of ‘anti-racist policies’ came to top the alleged ‘Frankfurt School’ list. Of course the provenance of the list is disputed and it has been attributed to Lyndon LaRouche, who appears to have a rather unfortunate racist bee in his bonnet.
However, that is not to say that most of the items on the list (apart from the first) do attack the Christian world-view and have been or are being put in place in Western nations by secularist politicians and civil servants.
I have seen a simpler and more plausible list calling for an attack on Christian fundamentals such as:
1 The abolition of the family (enthusiastically taken up by Gay Left and the paedophiles,
2 The elimination of private property – or if they don’t actually take it they just control it,
3 The destruction of nation states or absorbing them into globalist blocs,
4 The neutering of religion, by which they mean Christianity,
To which I would add, from the UK experience:
5 Instituting disrespect for human life through abortion and the abolition of the death penalty, and
6 Corruption of Christian sexual and social morality.
But whatever it is and wherever it comes from, Christians are in a cultural war, whether they like it or not.
See Jonas Clark’s article
I don’t see how re-instating the death penalty shows respect for life, if somebody dies in its implementation?
It is about respect for innocent life. In Britain, the value of an innocent life taken by a murderer is 11 or 12 years in prison. That is not equitable. Biblical penalties are about restoration – you steal, you don’t go to prison or get fined, you pay it back plus a reasonable increase. There is no way to make restoration for a life, except by the life of the murderer. But people have to be properly convicted by hearing from real witnesses (or I believe by proper forensic evidence) not on the say-so of self-appointed ‘experts’ with bees in their bonnets like Sir Roy Meadow.
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
But once you execute an innocent person, there’s no way of putting right that wrong. The chance of mistake is too great to ever reconsider capital punishment in the UK. Given the most recent botched execution in the US, I don’t see how that shows respect for life either.
Hi Jane, I agree. That is why people simply must be properly convicted by the evidence of eyewitnesses.
Our present ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ has led to injustice.
Would you approve a two-tier system? People convicted of murder ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ can go to prison as usual.
Those convicted without any doubt at all, in other words, when they were seen to carry out the deed in front of witnesses, the murderers of Lee Rigby for example, would be executed.
Nope. I don’t see how killing somebody to prove that killing is wrong, serves any purpose.
It serves the purpose of justice.
Dear Jane Glover,
despite the miscarriages of justice – arguably – I have yet to be convinced that the death penalty was wrong. As Stephen quite rightly says, those convicted without any doubt at all, in other words, when they were seen to carry out the deed in front of witnesses, the murderers of Lee Rigby for example – a year ago today – would have faced the gallows.
Had the PACE (Police And Criminal Evidence) Act existed sixty years ago, the late Derek Bentley would probably not have been executed: a recorded interview would surely have given evidence of his mental state. So today we have not only PACE but forensic science – which incidentally has confirmed that James Hanratty was at the scene where he carried out that murder. Therefore the chances – if we still had the gallows – of a convicted murderer being executed are much reduced.
I cannot believe that a genuine ‘Christian’ would call for the death penalty to be restored.
“But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Matthew 9:13
” for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”
Romans 3:23
Praise God for his mercy for without it we would all be in darkness!
Trevor, I don’t like the death penalty any more than any other Cambridge-educated liberal.
But every time I see that rainbow in the sky, I have to remind myself that God’s covenant with all mankind through the sons of Noah is still in force. Man is still made in the image of God, and the penalty for murder has to be the life of the murderer. You need to remember that our Creator God knows what is best for human society to flourish, not fallible man.
As to your quotes, you are confusing the rule of law, which every society needs to keep order, with individual salvation.
BTW, you aren’t that merciful yourself, calling a certain individual an ‘idiot’ and a ‘liar’ on your blog. Maybe you have some learning of your own to do…
The days of ‘an eye for an eye’ are long gone. If you can’t grasp that in the natural realm then i doubt very much if you could grasp it in the spiritual realm.
As for calling Proudlove an idiot i accept that i shouldn’t have said that. Calling him a liar i have no problem with. If you are going to call yourself a ‘Christian’ , as Proudlove and his ‘Christians for Zion’ cult do [Proudlove actually claims to be a Christian who practices Judaism] and then go about perverting the Bible or passing on outright lies and propaganda to fellow ‘Gullible Christians’ then yes, i am going to expose that person as a liar.
I believe the days of restorative justice never went away. You may not know that ‘an eye for an eye’ was commonly commuted into money, so an ‘eye’s worth’ was paid for the loss of an eye. These verses give an idea of the principle involved:
Exodus 21:18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed: 19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.
What all Christians should be doing, IMHO, is stop knocking the righteous laws of God and instead praying to be like the Psalmist who could say:
Psalm 119:97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
As the Lord Jesus himself said:
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Your quote refers to non life threatening injury. Here’s What Jesus had to say about Exdus 21.
” “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you”.
Matthew 5 V 38-42
Of course we have courts who deal with such acts but when all is said and done it is God himself who will hand out judgment when the time comes…It is not for you or i to decide when someone should be put to death.
See what you are seeking is vengeance and you’re seeking vengeance for acts that aren’t even committed against you.
IMO, you have read about God but you don’t know him personally…”By their fruit you will recognise them”
Calling for the death penalty is not the fruit of the holy spirit!
Wow, you really are judgmental, Trevor, aren’t you?
It is all very well to say ‘it is God himself who will hand out judgment when the time comes’, but how does that help the victims of crime or help to maintain peace and order?
‘It is not for you or i to decide when someone should be put to death’. No, it is for a judge in a court of law.
I don’t like the death penalty either, but every time I see the rainbow in the sky, I remember that God put that penalty in the hands of the civil judge after the flood for mankind for perpetuity. So I suggest you take it up with the Almighty, who seems to think it is an important part of the administration of justice:
Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. …
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
You’re confusing being ‘Judgmental’ with making a Judgment call.
Let me ask you a question based on your argument for the death penalty. Do you believe people doing any or all of the following should be put to death?
“Anyone who curses their father or mother?
adulterers and adulteresses?
a man who has sexual relations with his father’s wife?
a man who has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law?
a man who has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman”?
Btw if you had carried on with your quote from Romans 13 you would have found that love covers the law. Love does not condemn people to death.
Oh, so you think cursing father and mother, adultery, incest and sodomy are just fine? What penalties if any would you put in place?
I am with Almighty God on these. You go your own way.
But try to have enough humility not to accuse those who disagree with you of being outside the kingdom, or not spirit-filled, etc, eh?
BTW, if you carried on from love fulfilling (not covering) the law, you would find the Apostle endorsing the law.
I never said i agreed with such things. I’m asking you, based on your argument for the death penalty under God’s law, if you think people who do such things should be put to death.
A simple yes or no will suffice.
I’ve given my answer. God says yes, and far be it from me to disagree with him. So, what penalties would you put in place? Come on Trevor!
So it’s not just murderers you want the death penalty for. let’s look at what Jesus did.
“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
“No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
John 8 Vs 2-11
That right there is an act of mercy through love. Did Jesus, the only sinless one , break the law?
You then ask, “, what penalties would you put in place? Come on Trevor!”
I’ll answer you by posting Paul from 1st Corinthians 5 Vs 12 & 13
“What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
I certainly wouldn’t be putting anyone to death or calling for another to put anyone to death.
Exactly, the Lord Jesus upheld the law on adultery to the very letter, calling for the witnesses to cast the first stone, as required by the law, and reminding them that they must come to the action with clean hands, as required by the law!
See my article here: The Woman in Adultery
Oh dear, the Apostle Paul is talking about church discipline:
1Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
He has said in Romans 13 what the function and limit of the civil ruler are and scripture does not contradict itself.
So what penalties would you like to see for cursing parents, adultery, incest and sodomy?
Stephen, with regard to your post:
“Oh, so you think cursing father and mother, adultery, incest and sodomy are just fine? What penalties if any would you put in place?
I am with Almighty God on these. You go your own way”.
Please inform us as to why you have so far utterly failed to carry out the lords very specific word in this matter ? In your case only, this IS a fair question; one should should be proud to answer and also have the integity to publish (I certainly will). Anything less surely must immediate doubt on your piety.
Because:
(a) That is not the law of our land and
(b) I am not a member of the judiciary.
“Exactly, the Lord Jesus upheld the law on adultery to the very letter, calling for the witnesses to cast the first stone, as required by the law, and reminding them that they must come to the action with clean hands, as required by the law!”
And who has clean hands? Are you without sin, Stephen? Or do you think it ok to approach the throne of grace to seek forgiveness then turn around and condemn our fellow man to a death sentence?
I don’t know if you read about it or not but a couple of months ago a Muslim couple in Iran forgave their sons murderer and the father of the victim removed the noose from around the culprits neck just as he was about to be hanged. Now, if a Muslim couple can show this kind of mercy how much more should a follower of Christ show such mercy…Or should followers of Christ act in a way that is akin to Sharia law….?
Now let’s look towards Jesus again.
“Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.”
Matthew 5 V 7
Before we can become merciful though we first must recognise our poverty of Spirit.
“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5 V 3
Then when we have recognised our poverty of Spirit we will mourn [because we see how far we fall short of the glory of God] and be comforted.
“Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.”
Matthew 5 V 4
This in turn will lead us to be humble,
“Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.”
Matthew 5 V 5
This in turn should cause us to “hunger and thirst for righteousness” and by this stage we should be able to show mercy to our fellow man. We must remember, Stephen, that just like the Iranian man with the noose around his neck we too were condemned and figuratively speaking the Lord Jesus removed the noose, forgave us our sins and set us free from an eternal death penalty.
If we can’t grasp the concept of God’s mercy in the natural realm we can never learn or understand mercy in the spiritual realm.
“Oh dear…”
Indeed, Paul clearly states it is none of our business what people outside the body of Christ do. It will be a matter between them and God.
I’m with Paul, anyone inside the body of Christ committing such sins should be expelled but first i would go to that person, point out the error of their ways and plead with them to repent.
Remember, Stephen, our best deeds, individually and collectively, are like a filthy rag….
Ps at what age would you be willing to execute a child who curses their parents?
Clean hands in that particular case. The whole system of the administration of justice collapses if no-one (except, according to Catholics, the Virgin Mary) can give evidence in a court of law. How we need common sense. Access to a Greek dictionary is helpful too.
The Beatitudes are restatements by our Lord of Old Testament scripture. Not sure what convoluted point you were making.
Who are the ‘we’ who should ‘show mercy to our fellow man’? Since when were you or I members of the judiciary?
You still have not found the bottle to tell us all what penalties you want to see in these cases you brought up.
I recommend Joshua Chapter 1 to you. Courage is do-able and pray-able for.