The Conservative Mayor of London has banned London buses from carrying adverts promoting an ex-gay ministry.

Boris Johnson, who is running for re-election next month, told Transport for London to pull the adverts booked by two conservative Anglican groups within two hours of the story about the adverts appearing in the Guardian.

The ads were due to run on 24 buses on five routes and were booked on behalf of the Core Issues Trust whose leader, Mike Davidson, believes “homoerotic behaviour is sinful”.

Core Issues Trust funds “reparative therapy” for gay Christians, which it claims can “develop their heterosexual potential”. The campaign was also backed by Anglican Mainstream.

The advert was due to say: “Not gay! Post-gay, ex-gay and proud. Get over it!”

It was an obvious and timely send-up of the Stonewall homosexual lobby group’s bus adverts which say “Some people are gay – get over it!”

The Christian groups used the same black, red and white colour scheme as Stonewall and in a statement announcing the campaign accused it of promoting the “false idea that there is indisputable scientific evidence that people are born gay”.

Johnson, who contacted the Guardian to announce he was stopping the adverts within two hours of their contents becoming public, said: “London is one of the most tolerant cities in the world and intolerant of intolerance. It is clearly offensive to suggest that being gay is an illness that someone recovers from and I am not prepared to have that suggestion driven around London on our buses.”

The Christian groups insisted the advert had been cleared with Transport for London (TfL), which is chaired by the mayor. Davidson said: “I didn’t realise censorship was in place. We went through the correct channels and we were encouraged by the bus company to go through their procedures. They okayed it and now it has been pulled.”

CBS Outdoor, the media company that sells the bus advertising sites, said the ad had been passed for display by the Committee of Advertising Practice. It is understood TfL was due to make around £10,000 for allowing the adverts to run on about two dozen buses across five routes.

Mayor Johnson’s decision will fuel concerns over religious discrimination by showing that there is one rule for homosexual activists and another for Christians. 

The move by Boris is also certain to be seen as anti-Christian by an electorate which includes a large number of evangelical Christians.  Half of all Christians in London are black African or Caribbean and other fast-growing churches are heavily evangelical or pentecostal.

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126 COMMENTS

  1. The good news is that the advert has had publicity anyway through TV and papers mentioning it. I am not surprised it was stopped as Christian views are being constantly suppressed.
    On a personal note, I did not think the advert wording was very clear.

      • Really Alex? Paranoia? You have really been living such a sheltered life that you do not watch the news headlines? A B.A. employee stood down for wearing a cross when employees of other faiths could wear their symbols. The couple who refused to give a room to an unmarried homosexual couple because it went against their christian beliefs. In court they said they would have dealt with an unmarried heterosexual couple in exactly the same manner. A council forbidden by a court of law to open their meetings beginning with prayers. Christian couples denied giving foster children a loving home because they could not promote homosexuality. Nativity scenes removed from the town square in case it offends someone (never mind I am offended by its removal). Teachers forbidden to teach creationism and intelligent design in the class room. The school day beginning with assembly all but designated to the history books. Christians arrested for preaching Gods word in the street. These are just a small sample of headlines that have hit the news this past few years. I’m not quite sure how you arrive at the conclusion the article by Mr Robbins in the Guardian is a good counterpoint. He seems to also have lived a sheltered life if he has missed the ongoing onslaught on all things christian. Just for your information, I have no intention of entering into an ongoing saga, this reply is a one off.

        • Morning Steve

          Might I suggest that your post demonstrates precisely the problem that Martin Robbins writes about? – headlines and stories presented in a way that bears little resemblance to what actually happened.

          Take the BA case – Eweida v British Airways plc . Anyone actually interested in what happened would do well to read the Court of Appeal Judgment .

          Rather than what the Express, Mail, Telegraph reported. From the Judgment comes the reality: Eweida was asked to wear her cross necklace inside her uniform to comply with BA’s uniform policy for jewellery; she refused; BA reviewed its policy and confirmed it would allow the wearing of a crucifix lapel badge; Eweida said this was unacceptable; BA subsequently confirmed it would allow employees to wear a symbol of faith “openly” on a lapel pin, “with some flexibility … to wear a symbol of faith on a chain”; Eweida decided to pursue her case at an employment tribunal, citing discrimination; she rejected an out of tribunal settlement offered; she lost her case on the grounds she had breached BA’s uniform policy, which had been in place of some time, without good cause.
          She has since unsuccessfully sought to appeal on four occasions and is now on number five (to the ECHR in Strasbourg).

          It emerged at the hearings that there were other issues regarding Eweida’s conduct at BA, to include telling a gay man he could be “redeemed”.

          So, it is simply wrong to say this employee was stood down for wearing a cross.

          The “Council prayers” issue? Presumably, Bone –v- Bideford Town Council. Prayers were not forbidden by the Judgment. Rather, Mr Justice Ouseley said that formal prayer as part of meetings was unlawful under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972. However, he said prayers could be said as long as councillors were not formally summoned to attend. Prayer is not forbidden, therefore, of whatever denomination: rather, prayer simply cannot form part of formal Council business.

          Christian foster parents: presumably, a reference to the case of Owen and Eunice Johns. They were not rejected as foster parents because they ”could not promote homosexuality”. Rather, they insisted on being entitled to tell foster children entrusted to their temporary care that homosexuality was morally wrong. The Court of Appeal Judgment confirmed they were not ruling against beliefs but against the discriminatory effects of those beliefs: one set of beliefs could not take precedence in a pluralist society.

          I absolutely agree that the removal of Nativity scenes is just plain silly. My anecdotal, personal experience is that nobody (of whatever flavour of non-Christian) is actually that bothered by Nativity scenes and similar.

          Creationism / intelligent design. Teachers are not forbidden to teach these in the classroom. Rather, these matters are confined to RE studies, where they belong, rather than to science lessons.

          Dave (below) is right, when he observes that the issue is not one of Christian persecution: instead, the problem seems to be the removal of some of the privileged and special statuses that Christianity (specifically Protestantism) has historically enjoyed.

  3. I know it is a spoof of the “Proud to be Gay” thing. But, actually, I’m not sure about the association between “pride” and ones personal desires. If I could write a great symphony, I would be proud. But to be aroused by an attractive person? Proud? I don’t geddit. Is that a boast?

    Let us boast about our life in Christ.

  4. Come on Boris, it’s a bit rich you grumbling about this advert when you did nothing to stop this one http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CFMQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.humanism.org.uk%2Fbus-campaign&ei=6bKJT_OYBsLr8QP7lJHuCQ&usg=AFQjCNHyFRWHtejgNQuN2M3dNMwF28jT-A&sig2=Bf79b1rQT7FSPq5qfCOtuw you can’t have it all ways, free speech for everyone or none, but stop picking and choosing please.

    • What a short-sighted decision to ban these silly posters. Tom Chivers in yesterday’s Telegraph was spot on:

      Don’t ban the ‘ex-gay’ bus ads. But do ban their exclamation marks

      If I can offer a small piece of advice to gay-rights activists everywhere, don’t do it. Just be quiet. A few tiny bus posters would have gone almost entirely unnoticed; an online Guardian piece and this blog post will not exactly push it into the mainstream; but if the adverts are actually banned, then suddenly they’re all over every news outlet in Britain and the previously unheard-of Core Issues Trust are the new Christian Voice. (And, of course, it’s lots of free publicity for Stonewall as well, which I’m sure they won’t mind.)

      • Ah yes, but Christian bus campaigns are supported by God. So they,’re perfectly acceptable. If you try to ban those, you’re persecuting Christians. Atheist bus campaigns and gay rights posters are also persecuting Christians. Just stop persecuting the Christians.

      • http://www.atheistbus.org.uk/faq/ says: ‘The campaign began when comedy writer Ariane Sherine saw an advert on a London bus featuring the Bible quote, “When the Son of Man comes, will He find Faith on this Earth?” [sic]. A website URL ran underneath the quote, and when Sherine visited the site she learned that, as a non-believer, she would be “condemned to everlasting separation from God and then spend all eternity in torment in hell”.’
        Jane, what is your point?

      • The day Christians can’t hold their beliefs for fear of arrest, or worse, is the day they can proclaim themselves persecuted. The day this happens for non-Christians is the day Christian Voice is running the country.

        • Didn’t you read my original post on this thread? Obviously not. It’s already happened. Christians HAVE been arrested while street preaching. There have been several cases in England that have come to court, at least one of which was covered recently on this very web site. I know of christians here in Belfast, that have been harassed by being moved on and arrested. This is my last post on the subject as you appear to wilfully want to ignore the above.

          • If memory serves me right, they weren’t arrested for preaching in the street, but for harrasing innocent people.

          • Ah Dave, would that people were innocent in the eyes of the Almighty. And in any case, you are wrong. They are preaching the Gospel, out loud, in public, not to anyone in particular, but so all can hear. If you feel ‘harrassed’ by that, then I suggest you have some repenting of sin to do.

          • No, they are using an ancient book of fantasy to bolster their petty-minded bigotry. Me, I’ve never been bothered by these idiots.

  8. It seems we are heading for a country where homosexuals may criticize Christians but judges and others in so called ‘authority’ will not allow Christians to criticize homosexuals. The one big difference is that we as Christians have God on our side. Those who would live life without God have no morals, and it is the fact that homosexuals have no morals and hundreds of gay partners or more that is the real problem. What people do in private is one thing, but to force that on others publicly, to boast about homosexuality and to try to pervert others is not just lax morals, it is immorality in the extreme. And if someone has no morals and no conscience, and no fear of God, heaven knows not what they may do, or not do.

    You simply cannot trust anyone without any morals or conscience, let alone no fear of God. God, and thousands of years of human civilization know differently thank goodness.

    • Good morning Charles

      I’m interested in what appears to be your view, namely that one either derives one’s morality from the Christian god, or else one is immoral (or perhaps amoral).

      Is this an accurate distillation of your opinion?

      • Thank You Alex

        I was very particularly pointing out the immorality of homosexuals in general, but there are many who act immorally towards others and have no conscience, let alone any fear of God.

        Yes, I do believe that believe that a belief in God has moral ramifications. After all, Jesus says that he comes to put into effect every letter of the law of Moses, not to remove it.

        And the law of Moses states most clearly that homosexual behaviour by men is very very wrong.

        • Next question: do you take the view that homosexuality is intrinsically wrong / sinful, or does its sinful character come about on account of it being condemned as such by god? That is, absent the biblical passages about homosexuality, would you still find it immoral and, if so, why?

          I’ll park for now the development of a moral code that predates the OT by centuries – see, for example, the morality one finds in Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism – and the origin of that if not from the Christian deity.

          • Come on Alex, if you can bear it, just look at the constructions of the parts of the body involved. In particular, consider the lower intestinal tract. One cell thick of columnar epithelium, perfectly designed by our gracious maker for the extraction of water from bodily waste. So even basic anatomy teaches you that sodomy is a perversion of the created order. And even if you do not do God, common sense must come into play somewhere.

          • Well, I can’t rely on my own anatomy but I’m given to understand that the male G-spot is only capable of being directly stimulated via anal penetration (albeit it need not be a penis).

            If this were the product of design, it seems rather cruel of a designer god to make it so, having just condemned men who explore one of their most erogenous zones via the only opening available for that purpose.

          • Heard that before. You can make up no end of excuses for indulging in perversion. I note you don’t disagree that the colon is actually designed for extracting water from bodily waste. That is why it is commonly ruptured when being pressed into a use our gracious maker never intended, and why pathogens are easily absorbed depressing the immune system, isn’t it?

          • I don’t agree that a colon is designed for anything. I’ll need done help on the medical issues – upon what you rely when you say rupture is common – if I’m to respond to that

          • If I were to design a human being, I would ensure that all food ingested was used by the body, therefore not requiring a lower intestinal tract. In fact, given infinite resources, I’m sure I could design a far more efficient human than your deity did.

          • Stephen – I remember you asking if you were so squeamish about hetrosexual couples having anal sex and I think the response was along the lines of “we shouldn’t dictate what goes on behind closed doors”. So why is anal sex between hetrosexuals fine; we just don’t comment on it. Yes anal sex between homosexual men a perversion worthy of damnation ? The ‘perversion’ is exactly the same.

          • I entirely agree that the pseudo-sexual act is perverted and obviously dirty, even if the object of the attraction is righteous.

  9. So freedom of speech is being incrementally curtailed for undesirable groups. This action by Boris Johnson clearly shows that biblical christianity is seen as an unacceptable worldview by the British government and other measures taken by the government prove that true, uncompromising christianity is being pushed to the sidelines.
    On a more positive note couldn’t a christian group go ahead with a pro gospel, evangelising message on London’s buses instead, this would counter the homosexual propaganda at least to a degree.

    • I much prefer these three from Plato:

      We can forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.

      Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws..

      and my favourite:

      He was a wise man who invented God

      • With regard to this thread, publicly homosexual men are among the most foolish! They will certainly not escape the fullest punishment from God.

        Put in the simplest of terms, homosexuality leads to death and death of the soul where this has been boasted about publicly. This should particularly put fear into all homosexual activists.

        All those who publicly support homosexual movements will not escape God’s wrath.

        God is a good and great God, but He is also just!

          • Christianity and the message of God are as given to us by Jesus, his disciples, his followers and by the Old Testament.

            What was good 2000 years ago and more is still good today! It will be just as good 2000 years and as long there is future humanity into the future and until the Lord comes in his Kingdom to rule over the earth by then!

            Even the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His name!

            As for our type of Christians, all of us Christians are one with the Lord and the Lord’s love! God is God and you are just a person who happens to be called Dave who will die outside of God’s love if you should carry on as you are!

            Rejoice at Salvation and the Good News, or it is totally meaningless to you!

          • I’ve always thought it interesting from an anthropological point of view that the invention of the Abrahamic religions brought with it: the change of gender of creator goddess to creator god (prior to about 1,000 BCE, almost all creator deities were personified as female); the prurient obsession with the sexual behaviour of consenting adults, and the distillation of a polytheistic pantheon of gods down to monotheism (accompanied by a series of diktats intended to ensure the monopoly on worship – see Commandments 1 to 5).

          • Sorry, Alex, the discussion is in the context of homosexuality. Stonewall and the other gay activists are banging on about homosexuality day in day out. Christians finally get the courage to speak out against them and their faith is instantly accused by you of ‘the prurient obsession with the sexual behaviour of consenting adults’, despite this behaviour actually forming only two or three out of the 613 commandments revealed to Moses.
            And would you kindly date the ‘invention of the Abrahamic religions’ for those of us who aren’t quite as up to speed with comparative religion as you are?

          • Hehe. Sorry, Dave. Two bottles of Prosecco down. I’ve been baking all day, so am self-medicating with alcohol.

          • Sorry, Stephen. I thought I’d done that. The date is about – not precise, but about – 1,000 BCE.

          • So just remind me, what were the dates of birth of Jesus Christ and Mohammed? In your opinion as a comparative religion expert of course.

          • You can use Google for this one, Stephen. Sorry, I’ve got banana bread in the oven to see to and then I’m off to bed. Oh, and don’t confuse the invention with the later refinement.

          • So Judaism, Christianity and Islam were all ‘invented’ in 1,000 BC, you say. They don’t half teach accuracy on those comparative religion courses, don’t they? No broad-brush approach intruding there.
            For the record:
            Abraham born 1813 BC or thereabouts.
            Moses born around 1500 BC.
            Jesus Christ born 4 BC died and rose 30AD or so.
            Mohammed born 570 AD died 632 AD.

          • The other problem Alex is about the Unholy and the Ungodly trying to infiltrate religious organizations and trying to water down holiness, or to get more criticism against Christianity, or to try to divide Christians.

            In truth, in Very Truth I tell you no outspoken homosexuals have any part in God’s Kingdom and the furtherance of God’s Kingdom.

            Let those who are Holy be Holy. Let the Unholy and the Ungodly continue in their ways, . . . in defiance of God.

            The purpose of the Gospel is to try to save such as those from their sins. Those who will not and continue not to acknowledge their sinfulness face the full wrath of God.

            Myself I fear God and acknowledge His ways.

          • I thought I’d dealt with the point about invention versus refinement already. The difference between a Jew versus a Christian versus a Moslem is the jumping-off point: by definition for a Jew, the OT; for a Christian, OT plus NT, for a Moslem, OT plus edited highlights of NT plus Qur’an. I’m not really getting your point about the chronology to be honest.

            I’d rather not start on OT dating tonight, but happy to take up the theme tomorrow.

            And pleased to see you back to your waspish, superior self!

          • The point about the chronology is that you say all three of the ‘Abrahamic’ religions (though taking Islam’s self-definition as an ‘Abrahamic religion’ at face value – esp when Abraham did not worship Arab pagan deities – seems uncharacteristically generous of you) date to 1,000 BC.
            Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, so I have little problem with the ‘refinement’ point there if you must. Islam is a refinement of paganism not Judaism, despite Mohammed incorporating bits of the Bible in the Quran. But where on earth does this date of 1,000 BC (not BCE whatever that means) for the supposed ‘invention’ of Judaism come from? It’s roughly around the time of David, 445 years after the Mosaic Covenant, 850 years after the Abrahamic, 2,000 years after Enoch walked with God (Gen 5:22-24). Surely some mistake?
            See: http://www.chelper.net/btl/BibleTimeLine.htm

        • Thanks for this, Stephen.

          Your timeline is nice and colourful and clearly was a labour of love on the part of its author. As a timeline of biblical history, it’s superlative. As a timeline of history, it’s a nonsense.

          Creation in 4,000 BCE? Seriously? I didn’t think anybody still bought into that. So, the world – the universe – was created at about the same time as the potter’s wheel was being invented in Sumer and horses were being domesticated in the Ukraine. It would probably come as a huge surprise to the indigenous Australians and Torres Strait Islanders, whose arrival apparently pre-dated the creation of the universe by about forty thousand years. One might have thought they would have noticed.

          The flood in 2,300 BCE? Is this put forward seriously? The Egyptians and / or the Chinese, both of whom maintained written records continuously throughout this period, were pretty lax in failing to mention an extinction-level global flood.

          I don’t doubt the OT dating on the biblical timeline to which you’ve linked. The issue I have is one of evidence. You say that Enoch walked with god: where do I find the evidence of that? If the answer is, “the bible”, that’s no answer at all. You create an entirely closed and self-perpetuating mythology with such a response that will only ever satisfy those who believe the bible is a document of historical accuracy.

          Serious academics – not those who adopt a “bible and spade” approach, where evidence is ignored unless it supports the biblical account – are almost universally agreed that much of the early history of the bible is purely mythical. The Patriarchs are mythical, the Exodus is mythical, and the Conquest is mythical. Moses is largely or entirely mythical. Much of his biography, if not most of it, is tied to events that never happened, meaning that a historical Moses could not have confronted the Pharaoh and led the Israelites to freedom.

          The main debate nowadays is over how historical the biblical accounts of Kings David and Solomon are. But the debate over mythicism is not likely to proceed much past them, since the Dual Monarchy period is reasonably well-supported from outside sources, even though the Biblical account of that period is rather editorialized.

          Few contemporary scholars doubt that the Pentateuch reached its present form in the Persian period (538-332 BCE), and that its authors were the elite of exilic returnees who controlled the Temple at that time. The books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings follow, forming a history of Israel from the conquest of Canaan to the fall of Jerusalem: there is a broad consensus among scholars that these originated as a single work (the so-called “Deuteronomistic history”) during the 6th century Babylonian exile. The two Books of Chronicles cover much the same material as the Pentateuch and Deuteronomistic history and probably date from the 4th century BCE. Chronicles links with the books of Ezra and Nehemiah, which were probably finished during the 3rd century BCE.

          The history books make up around half the total content of the Old Testament. Of the remainder, the books of the various prophets – Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and the twelve “minor prophets” – were written between the 8th and 6th centuries BCE, with the exception of Jonah and Daniel which are much later, and the “wisdom” and other books – Job, Proverbs and similar books – date from the 5th century BCE to the 2nd or 1st, with the exception of some of the psalms.

          I hope the above helps explain why I put a date of about 1,000 BCE as being the time of the origin via invention of the Abrahamic faiths.

          As for what BCE means, if you seriously don’t know, I suggest you Google it. It’s a rather common notation in theology and history

          • Well, well, from reading them, I would never have guessed that 1&2 Chronicles ‘cover much the same material as the Pentateuch’. It just shows what a bit (OK, a lot) of scepticism can do to the mind. I think Steve is right. It is a waste of time throwing any more precious stones around the farmyard.

        • > homosexuality leads to death

          Yeah, so does hetrosexuality. So does pretty much everything from the point of birth – since it’s the one place we’re all going to end up !

          Not sure the point you’re trying to make.

  12. Sorry Alex, any so-called ‘christians’ who take a ‘different view’ of homosexuality are not Christians at all. Homosexuals are one of the curses of society and the family. There can be no family by homosexuals as homosexuals are unable to procreate. Were men supposed to be homosexuals, mankind would have died out long ago.

    I refer you to higher up this post. Jesus is coming to put the law of Moses into effect, NOT to remove it!

    Mainstream Christianity does not, and never will accept homosexuality and outspoken homosexuals, nor does it ever have to.

    Christianity has maintained since the time of Moses that homosexuality is extremely, and exceptionally WRONG and will continue to speak out AGAINST homosexuality.

    So Alex, GET OVER THAT!

  13. This post is for the attention of the christians on this thread only. Brothers/sisters why continue to reply to this folly? These people are surely not interested in hearing or obeying Gods word. We are told in Matt 10.14 if anyone will not hear our testimony we are to turn our backs on them. As for this >>>> http://problemsofmysociety.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/tumblr_ldppvs9dcl1qd5ctbo1_500.jpg
    that was posted by Alex above. Anyone can wear a label. Some labels are deceptive. These are surely a classic example of Matthew 7.21-23. If we are to believe scripture which if you profess Christ you must, then we must conclude that there is no such thing as a practicing homosexual christian. Scripture is crystal clear. One only has to read 1 Corinthians 6:9–10. This is probably the clearest passage in all scripture. I will continue reading this thread, but this is my final post.

  14. God has written his commandments and the two that are the most important are to love God above all else and to love your neighbour as yourself.

    It was written in the time of Moses that homosexuality is one of the deadliest sins. Christians have followed that teaching since Jesus’s coming to the world following on from the practice of God’s children before that time.

    The light of Christianity shines on, but homosexuality just leaves a bad smell behind itself.

    Caring for others includes not putting others at risk, including various germs from certain parts of the body and the risk of Aids. Condoms can and do split, and it is better to abstain than to defile a fellow man.

    You can argue as much as you like Dave, but the plain fact is that God’s children prior to Christianity, and God’s children now and into the future regard homosexuality as being extremely sinful,and a totally and completely immoral way to behave.

    Archaeologists will point to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah. When man persists in great evil, God obliterated these two cities. It is proven that Sodom and Gomorrah were raised virtually to the ground and existed not there after. The only feasible explanation for what happened is that God caused a catastrophe of exceedingly great magnitude in wiping out these sinful cities.

    The sin of one of the two cities was forcing visitors to perform acts of homosexuality.

    But then again, most homosexuals put themselves before God; the deadliest sin of all.

    • David, do you know the difference between God’s moral and civil laws (which are still in force) and the sacrificial and ceremonial laws (which were fulfilled and abrogated by Jesus)? Because I keep the former but not the latter. Or you can say I keep them all, but the latter only in their New Testament application. That is to say, I try to, by God’s grace.

    • Dave – Repent and join with the Lord’s joy, or leave this forum and do not return here. As in get thee from me Satan. Or remove yourself hence evildoer.

      Repent or the wrath of the Lord is upon you.

      • Hi Charles

        I asked in an earlier post about your views on the nature of sin. That is, whether you believed homosexuality was intrinsically wrong / sinful, or whether its sinful character was due to it being condemned as such by god? That is, absent the biblical passages about homosexuality, would you still find it immoral and, if so, why?

        This was then overtaken by a number of exchanges between Stephen and me that took us away from the question.

        I’m still interested to know your view on this.

        • Its sinful character is condemned by God. That is sufficient.

          Material things are transient and not of the Lord. That which is not material is eternal.

          If you would keep your mind and dwell on that which is material, how can the Spirit develop?

          And yes, as you have asked, I do consider homosexuality to be intrinsically wrong. Why should a man choose a man for physical relief when there are women in the world? It is also medically unsafe, and I also consider it very wrong for a man to physically dominate or physically submit to another man. There is also the consideration that it concerns the part of the body that ejects physical waste.

          There is the issue of multiple and frequent physical relation changes, often with people the homosexual doesn’t know well, if at all.

          Loose morals and constant loose living can only cause anxiety, worry and neglect and a massive increase in the risk of contracting Aids or other serious/very serious illnesses.

          But in conclusion we do have Scripture and the Word of God.

          Live according to God’s Word, and LIVE, or choose to deny God and God’s word, and when you die, there is nothing, or eternal torment.

          Jesus came into the world not to unite everyone, but to divide the world into the Children of God or the children of the Devil. Your choice . . . .

          • But if I understand the Bible, everything from conception, through birth, and everything in life is sinful. What makes homosexuality any different.

            “There is also the consideration that it concerns the part of the body that ejects physical waste.” Think about this next time you visit the gents (I’m trying to be as non-crude as possible).

  17. I know Jesus is alive and that he heals people. I got persecuted in the secret family courts over a 7 year period and I called out to Jesus to help me, and he did. I didnt realise there were secret courts in the UK, until I found myself in one, and it was so frightening, and I had psychological torture techniques used on me and it made me cry and scream what they did, it was very very frightning, but the Lord heard me and helped me. I had written to every MP in Parliament 10 times over, and I had contacted Jack Straw and other ministers, they were all aware of what was being done to me, but they would not help me at all, but the Lord did help me. Dave and Alex, the Lord really did rise from the dead, I can’t prove it, but I know he’s alive, and really loves to help people.

  18. Stephen Green really loves the Lord and he puts all his heart and soul into trying to do what the Lord wants him to do, which is telling everyone the good news that Jesus is alive, and trying to help people to be saved. It’s not easy to do that sometimes when the very people you are really just trying to help to get to eternal bliss are fighting you every inch of the way. We can’t go to heaven if we are bad, because we would spoil it, and it wouldnt be heaven then, if people were still doing bad stuff, like they are in this world, hurting each other. The Paedophile Information Exchange shared a platform with Stonewall when it was set up. People need to educate themselves and see what happened, they need to see the human history through Gods eyes.

    • Simply that you said that Christians don’t persecute Christians, in response to my observation that they have and do and that much of history has been driven by religious strife (there is even a news article today about hair related violence within the Amish community !!!).

      I don’t think that in itself undermines the moral basis of Christianity as taught by Christ because religions are essentially human phenomena with all the wickedness that implies, but nor, when discussing persecution which is how this thread started, can Christianity simply ignore its own history of violence and persecution against non Christians and against Christians of a different flavour to those currently in the ascendancy. I note that Anders Breivik claims to be a militant Christian defending Christendom in Scandinavia. Obscene as such a claim is, religions cannot just ignore or gloss over the claims that are made on its behalf. A big part of CV’s raison d’etre is that Islam is an inherently violent and jihadist faith. Most Muslims would reject this, but the fact remains that some of the imagery and some of the contents of the Quran, not to mention the hadith etc, seem to permit such an interpretation in the hands of extremists. I think that CV’s attacks on Islam would be more plausible if Christianity’s own history were addressed head on, and I have been very surprised at Stephen’s reaction to what seems to me a very mild and obvious, and not intended to be hostile, point

      By all means say that those who truly love the Lord would not harm others who love the Lord but the outsider can only go on why people claim they are doing what they are doing.

      By all means argue with my point, but Stephen has not yet seen fit to address this by argument, merely deleted my comments and (outside this thread) deleted me from future CV e mails on the grounds that I am exposing divisions in the Church and am an atheist having a laugh. Until someone actually bothers to dispute my comments I will assume I have won the argument by default

      • I tell you in Truth that there are those amongst Christians who call themselves Christians who will be considered lowest in the Kingdom of Heaven, while others who serve others quietly and modestly will be high in God’s Kingdom.

        True Christians have never and never will persecute true Christians.

          • True Christians, Dave, do this for a start:
            Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
            Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
            James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
            2Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

          • Have you been to Belfast lately?

            Please try to answer in modern English if possible, it makes things so much easier x

      • Richard, Jesus could not have made himself clearer on his attitude to violence. He told Peter to put away his sword when Peter used a sword to defend Jesus from the Roman soldiers who had come to arrest him to take him to be judged and executed. He even healed the soldier’s ear before he went with the soldiers.

        Jesus told his followers to lay down their lives, because the kingdom that he talked about so much was not of this world. This world is doomed already.

        Anders Breivik is very wrong to think that God gave him a mission to murder all those people. If he would have read the words of Jesus he would have easily seen what he did was not what Jesus told him to do at all. Andre Brevik might have been brainwashed into thinking that what he did was right, but even if it was other people who claim to be Christians that brainwashed him, they are all wrong as well. Even a little child can understand what Jesus said, if they are given the chance to actually hear the words of Jesus, which, in this day and age, many of them are not.

        I am not a member of the Knights Templar, or the Family, or the Children of God, or any of those other cults and exclusive clubs, so I dont know what they are teaching their followers, but whatever it is, if Anders Breivik is anything to go by, it certainly is not the gospel.

        I have had a massive big fight with paedophile gangsters, who hate me, because I found out about the secret family courts using syndromes invented by paedophiles and refused to shut up about it. It makes me feel angry at times, to be persecuted by these people, they have done so many horrible things to me that I have lost count, but I know that the Lord will not give me permission to hate these people, or do anything wicked back to them, because judgement and retribution belongs to him and him alone. We do not have the right to take the law into our own hands, we have to pray that justice will be done, and we have to pray for our government that the people who lead this country (or whatever country we live in) will abide by God’s laws, and love justice and pass good righteous laws. We used to have the death penalty in this country, now we do not, but we are all under the penalty of death anyway, because the Lord gives us life and the Lord can take it away at any time that he chooses to. That ought to be a sobering thought to anyone who is tempted to do evil, because the Bible is very clear that if we die in our sins we are doomed to eternal damnation.

        • Dear Barbara. I agree that Anders Breivik is an exteme example which is why I described his claim as obscene, but I don’t think you can just absolve religion from any responsibility for the things that are done in its name. The fact is, unless you can dispute it on evidential grounds, that much of the history of Christianity has been violent with some of the worst violence inflicted by people who claim to be Christians on other people who claim to be Christians, not to mention on God’s original chosen people the Jews or on Muslims who claim to share some of the Abrahamic traditions. Christianity gained its prominence in the Roman Empire by Constantine’s belief that God supported him in the sort of commonplace war between factions which bedevilled the Empire and which seemed to have no moral foundation other than naked power. And the God of the Old Testament was incredibly violent, slaughteriog first borns, requiring the Israelites to slaughter everyone (including animals) in a defeated people, allowing the birth of Jesus Himself to be accompanied by Herod’s slaughter of children.

          All this violence and persecution has been done by sincere people claiming to be enacting the will of God, who could presumably have stopped it any time. I am willing to be shown that I am wrong, but so far no one has bothered to dispute this on factual grounds and it just isn’t an argument to say that no “true” Christians would have done those things

  21. I tell you in Truth that there are those amongst Christians who call themselves Christians who will be considered lowest in the Kingdom of Heaven, while others who serve others quietly and modestly will be high in God’s Kingdom.

    Only God knows the day when He cometh, but do not be caught up in wrongdoing on that day or you will surely perish!

    If you reject God and God’s love, you reject all there is to hope for.

  23. You have a choice Dave, act like a complete atheist and die when you die, or believe and live. For he who dies believing will yet live.

    If you wish to disbelieve in the power holding the universe together, providing energy, matter and life, that is your decision. The physical elements in themselves are inert and without life, yet God has provided that out of these inert materials life can arise.

    We are conscious of our own existence, of our own life-force. But how does matter, time (to which all in the universe is bound) and space exist and continue to exist, and how did this existence arise in the first place.

    You believe in physical existence and reality, but what supports these? Where did the huge and massive amount of energy that exists in matter come from in the first place. We can trace it all back to the fusion of hydrogen with itself and with helium and other isotopes, but hydrogen is not pure energy. Something has created hydrogen, and we know not what. Space contains nothing. Yet it exists. Gravity and Time operate across the universe over billions of light years of Space. The elements though in varying proportions exist across the universe also. We know this from the analysis of light spectra from even the most distant galaxies.

    And even if you were to find a process where the protons and nuetrons in atoms combine into hydrogen, where did they come from in the first place? Are you going to say they have always existed? That time and space and matter just exist and that is all there is to it? If that is so and there is nothing else then when you die that is the end of it all. This makes us either the sorriest of people or the most joyous.

    But we are full of joy, because living human witness tells us that Jesus is raised to Life. It all comes down to one point. Do you believe Jesus was raised from the dead or do you not believe this?

    If Jesus was not raised from the dead we are bigger fools than all atheists put together. But Jesus said to Thomas, you have seen and believed. There are many who have not seen and have yet believed who have the Risen Christ in their hearts and eternal life as their reward.

    Life in the universe is eternal. If you don’t believe this to be true, you will go the way of the dinosaurs.

    When Jesus said “There are many mansions in my Father’s house” I often wonder if He was referring to the myriads of other planetary systems in the universe, many with life, and the potential for life.

    If you deny God, then you deny life itself.

    – Either way, live your life in peace and be compassionate to others.

  24. Dear Barbara

    Although my most recent post has also been removed (Stephen really is very efficient, isn’t he, although I am surprised he has not closed this thread down yet as it continues to let me comment) at least you acknowledge the point I made, even if only by flatly denying it without any attempt to argue it. But are you really denying the evidence of 2,000 years of history. We can only go by what people claimed they were and why they were doing it

    • Dave, I don’t remember you posting such a question, but in any case you are trolling: Asking questions for the sake of it and not following through. You still have to come back on my article explaining the difference between God’s moral and judicial laws and his sacrificial and ceremonial laws.

  26. There are fountains and streams of life and living water freely available if anyone would just return to God and follow His ways.

    (I am incidentally a 60 year old man with by God’s grace, four grown up children.)

    My final word to you on this thread is either you believe, or you don’t, Dave.

  27. “True Christians have never and never will persecute true Christians.”

    My question to Charles was, given that the deep divisions between Protestants and Catholics that have scarred this country for centuries, which of these are ‘true Christians’? Many on either side of this schism must regard the other as untrue Christians, otherwise the persecution that has undeniably occurred, and still occurs, would never have happened.

    So, my question stands.

  28. I was replying to dear Charles’ point about united christians. It does get confusing when my comments appear out of order on this thread. I’m concerned this might be a punishment for sinful living, but then as my house is still mouse-free I’m guessing I’ve escaped the wrath of our all-loving father thus far.

  29. I wish Charles would write more stuff. That whole 19th century English schtick is a hoot. He’s fun, although I’m not entirely convinced he’s not just having a laugh at this whole thing.

    But then Barbara writes a post and she seems genuinely troubled, and I feel sad to imagine that she fell in with this lot at a vulnerable time rather than a more open-minded and less hateful bunch of folk.