In evidence for Christian persecution in Britian, you have cited 18 cases spread over 9 years. In many of these examples, you have failed to provide the full facts.
“The British church would again suffer persecution in the 16th century under the reign of Mary Tudor, appropriately nicknamed Bloody Mary. Mary reversed the reforms of her brother Edward VI in an attempt to return England to Catholicism. Around 280 Protestants were executed, mostly through burning alive…”
Of course, this doesn’t even begin to compare thousands of Christians who are burned alive in 21st Century Britain every day. And as for those who can’t wear a crucifix for health ands safety reasons…ooh, don’t get me started.
Nice to see that the above people on here,most of whom are very clearly anti christian and anti God, still take the time to visit this website, read the articles and even post a comment, nice one lads!
I’m not anti god (or gods) because I don’t believe any exist. Neither am I anti Christian. You just choose to see me that way because I am anti Christian Voice.
You can be anti whatever you want, but it does not change the fact your taking the time to read and post a comment, and as christians we like to see that.
“Nice to see that the above people on here,most of whom are very clearly anti christian and anti God, still take the time to visit this website, read the articles and even post a comment, nice one lads!”
You need us. It’s lonely out there, being ignored in the cold alongside the other hate groups.
”You need us. It’s lonely out there, being ignored in the cold alongside the other hate groups.”
Keep telling yourself that and you might just convince yourself it’s true! I always have a giggle when i hear people lump christianity as a hate group, and i have an even bigger giggle when that comes from someone who ”hates” christianity! lol, I look forward to you taking the time to come on here again, read an article and write another post.
I don’t need to repeat things endlessly to myself to convince myself that they are true. That’s more of a faith-based approach.
To your point about lumping all of christianity as a hate group- I’m not. There are a lot of Christian groups in the world doing good work, especially in the charitable sector.
I’m charging this particular poisonous interpretation of it with being a hate group. Suicide amongst gay teenagers is a shameful indictment of the levels of intolerance in our society. Your group’s poisonous rhetoric contributes to that. That is why I call this a hate group.
I don’t hate Christianity. Personally, I am contemptuous of it, in the same way as I would be with anyone who chose to run their life according to fairy stories or what self-proclaimed gurus tell them to do, and I dislike the Church as an institution, but if Christianity floats your boat and you don’t feel you’re wasting your time then by all means go for it.
Where it becomes hateful and goes beyond acceptability is when you start telling other people how to live their lives, and tell vulnerable people that they are going to go to your hell because of what it says in your book. That, to me, is way beyond the pale.
Where is your evidence of what christians have to say leads to suicide in gay teenagers??
And you want to talk about fairy stories, tell me then, if a supernatural God did not create life and everything around you, where then did it come from?,how did it happen?, do you actually believe the nonsense that nothing created something?, that’s not even scientific let alone possible!!
“Where is your evidence of what christians have to say leads to suicide in gay teenagers??”
Harassment due to sexual orientation is one of the leading factors contributing to suicide amongst gay teenagers. The hateful rhetoric that this organisation pumps out directly contributes to that same culture of intolerance. Ask yourself if you think you are making it easier or harder for these people. Or will you not stop until you have a statistically significant number of suicide notes that specifically reference your organisation?
“And you want to talk about fairy stories, tell me then, if a supernatural God did not create life and everything around you, where then did it come from?,how did it happen?, do you actually believe the nonsense that nothing created something?, that’s not even scientific let alone possible!!”
Positing a god figure performing creation doesn’t answer any of the questions you put. It makes as much sense as suggesting it was done by Allah, a magical monkey, the flying spaghetti monster or some fairies. It is true that we don’t know what triggered the Big Bang; it doesn’t follow from this that the god from your books did it.
Good admission Ian, that you don’t know. There is indeed as much evidence that everything can spring from nothing as that talking up homosexuality in school reduces bullying. The latter merely gives bullies a new weapon to use against children who are different in some way.
I don’t buy that at all, i think you find it very easy and convenient to blame christians, as most people do for a lot of things.
Only to the ignorant does a creator God make no sense and its usually because they realise they will stand and give an account for the life they’ve lived, it dosn’t matter how you dress it up, none of what exists around you is possible without a creator.
I once watched an interview with richard dawkins, when he was asked how it was possible without a creator he replied ” i think alien life evolved on another planet and that they came here and seeded earth”, this man laughs and scoffs at christians and a creator God but thinks that this is a plausible idea!!, don’t make me laugh.
There are a lot of negative things going on in my life at the moment. I don’t even blame your deity for them, never mind his Christian lackeys.
Would that be this exchange between Dawkins and Ben Stein?
BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution?
DAWKINS:Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now, um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer.
Very different to the paraphrasing above, but why let the truth and accuracy stand in the way of a good polemic?
Fred Hoyle rejected evolution as being mathematically impossible but he also thought life arrived here from outer space. It only puts the question of how life began another remove away.
“I don’t buy that at all, i think you find it very easy and convenient to blame christians, as most people do for a lot of things.”
You addressed none of my arguments about the plight of homosexual teenagers, dismissing them out of hand. You then started banging out about Creationism, and asserted that anyone who does not believe in your creator god idea is ‘ignorant’. How very convenient. And how surprising that so many people find this branch of extremist christianity to be supercilious and holier-than-thou. Can’t think where that comes from, myself.
“Good admission Ian, that you don’t know. There is indeed as much evidence that everything can spring from nothing as that talking up homosexuality in school reduces bullying. The latter merely gives bullies a new weapon to use against children who are different in some way.”
Stephen. Until you stop abusing your position as site moderator to delete comments with which you disagree, even your well-argued points don’t warrant a response.
Fortunately this one is self-evidently nothing of the sort, as it deliberately conflates two entirely distinct and unrelated arguments- one relating to Creationism and the other being your organisation’s encouragement of the culture of bullying and hatred towards gay teenagers.
I note your comments have been published …
There is nothing in what we do that encourages bullying. It is organisations like ‘Schools Out’ and people like Gareth Thomas who talk up ‘gay bullying’ who give bullies a new weapon.
Oh, by the way, here is an ‘anti-bullying’ homosexual activist bullying students: http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/gay-anti-bully-activist-savages-christians/?cat_orig=education
You’re too kind, Steven. Too kind.
So, just to be clear- it’s Gareth Thomas’ fault that gay kids are getting bullied? Until now I had laboured under the delusion that he had made a very brave and difficult decision to reveal his natural sexual preference in an overwhelmingly homophobic sport, but now I see that he was maliciously trying to make life harder for gay teens. I do apologise, I’m a little slow at times.
Not a very brave and difficult decision when his career was all but over. No, maybe he thinks he’s helping advance the homosexual cause, but he is empowering bullies to pick on children who are just a bit different. And I don’t buy the guff about ‘gay teens’ by the way. Many adolescents go through a sexually confused time. The last thing they need is some authority figure saying that a transient crush is a fixed homosexual orientation.
Alex, mine is not ”very different”, its the short version!
Stephen, I’m sure the mental health profession across the globe, and in particular child and adolescent psychiatry and psychology, is hugely grateful that you’re on hand to tell them that the preponderance of empirical research on the formation of human sexuality is flawed.
“Fred Hoyle rejected evolution as being mathematically impossible but he also thought life arrived here from outer space.”
Fred Hoyle appears to have been something of a contrarian. However, he was an atheist and acknowledged the scientific truth of evolution, but rejected abiogenesis.
Could be alex.
Sorry this is a somewhat lengthy post, but to put things into a scientific perspective at some point one has to acknowledge powers and forces beyond our explanation. Scientists know for example the effect of gravity, yet it is a totally unseen force, that we cannot replicate in any way except as an attracting force between matter. We are unable to replicate gravity and have no idea at all about its nature, except that the bigger the mass, the larger the pull of gravity. It is a property of matter, but it is invisible, cannot be detected except by its effects and cannot be altered in any way.
I write this against the doctrines of and the influence of the ‘New Atheists’.
Whichever way you look at it, life exists. The ability for inorganic materials to form into organic compounds and eventually develop into life is either a property of Nature or a God-given quality.
We are not able to replicate the process, after all it took hundreds of millions of years for the first living cells to develop. Scientists are unable to say what the difference between life and inorganic non-life is. They cannot even define life itself. But the complexity of evolution is such that random events do not seem to provide the answer. As an example, if every atom on the planet was a typewriter churning out random text continuously, not one of them would produce something as ordered or relatively simple as a Shakespeare play even over 4.5 billion years; the age of the Earth.
The point is, life determines itself, it determines its own actions and influences the further development of life. Life is not a random arrangement of atoms, it is a very specific and very ordered arrangement, and more complex life forms can decide on their own course of actions. From the stimuli around them, even ants have a very large choice in how they behave and how and where they move to. Larger complexes of some insects, such as termites, bees and ants act with the accumulated intelligence of all of their members and have a structured ordered society, not in our terms of course, but way, way beyond the intelligence of a single ant. So it is with us as people, the accumulated knowledge and intelligence of the ‘world of people’ at large is beyond measure removed from one individuals knowledge and complete understanding.
But I have strayed rather from the point. The entire universe is ordered by the laws of physics and chemistry. The structure of time and space is consistent throughout the known universe, even if influenced by very large masses such as stars in their immediate proximity. And as biological life has developed; by the laws of biology. The structure of atoms is identical anywhere in the universe. Electromagnetic radiation is identical here or across the furthest reaches of the universe. So the universe has a structure which is constant throughout space and time.
We have consciousness, as do all animal species, but human consciousness is of the self-awareness nature. Only about 4 species on our planet are self-aware and can recognise themselves in a mirror. Chimpanzees, Orang-Utangs, Dolphins and people. But we as people are as far removed from Chimpanzees as Chimpanzees are from insects in terms of our innate intelligence and abilities.
But how did our universe have exactly this structure of 98 naturally occuring elements, 80 of which are stable? The other 18 elements decay over time, and man has produced 10 additional non-naturally occurring elements. Atoms are highly ordered and structured matter. But how does the universe have this structure, and ordering, and time. What is energy, the most basic building block of the universe. Put together energy, space and time and you have the Universe.
But you also have to add Life into the equation , which has developed out of these. And love, though completely non-material is a profound feature amongst higher animal species and people. Then there is consciousness.We have computers that can vastly exceed human calculation and human rates of thought, but computers are not conscious in any way and neither are they capable of any kind of independent
thought processes, nor can they in any way determine their own actions. Computers do not have a conscience. If they tell their users to sell at such and such a price, ethics do not come into it.
So what is consciousness, what is this property of being alive? What is time itself? No-one has yet come up with even the faintest of answers. We simply don’t know. We exist, they exist. We may know scientifically how the human species has arisen, but we cannot say what our most basic attribute as people is, nor where it comes from. We may have physical answers as to what sustains the human body and we may know that chemical and electrical processes happen in our brain, but we haven’t the foggiest notion as to what human consciousness is, nor about what exactly constitutes Life.
We are, so we have consciousness and know about our own consciousness, but we can’t explain it at all, in any way.
There is order out of nothingness, order out of chaos and disorder, and energy, time and space exist. We can travel through nothingness, empty space, as indeed some of our astronauts have, but we have only the most limited notion of how far this nothingness continues. How far this empty space goes on for, we simply don’t know.
And out of this nothingness has come energy and time; matter has come into existence out of pure energy and even we ourselves have developed from pure energy. How can the Universe have this structure and this ability, this ability to define itself?
So the Universe has the ability to be structured and ordered in exactly the same way completely across and throughout the Universe. Inorganic matter can somehow produce organic matter and life can come into existence, so the Universe has the ability to produce life. The Universe maintains existence and maintains life. We exist because the Sun exists and continues to provide heat and light. Yet there are trillions of stars across the Universe.
Is it any wonder that man has called the power and structure behind the Universe God?
Science and God can co-exist. Science may not be able to prove that there is a God, but neither can they disprove it. We know from historical records that Jesus lived about 2000 years ago. It is totally inconceivable that the witness to Jesus having risen from the dead would have continued, had He not so risen. His disciples and the other followers of Jesus would have disbanded or gone on to form completely different sects with other beliefs. That they did not is living testimony to the truth of the Gospels and the preaching of the Good News. Jesus is indeed risen and He will surely return at the coming of God’s Kingdom!
I will lighten this lengthy discourse. Do not join dangerous organizations. Practice safe sects! And nothing is safer than Christianity and God and Jesus’s Love!
We are only here because of a series of catrastrophic (in terms of previous life forms on the planet) happenings that have happened from Space, such as major meteorite collisions. Were these intentional and timed to be of the required use, or just random events that ‘just’ happened to happen at exactly the right time?
It is of course a huge step to saying that the Universe itself has consciousness, and that it directs itself, but if even the lowliest of species can decide their own actions, who can speak for the entirety of the Universe, or indeed various parts of the Universe?
We simply do not know what power consciousness and conscious thought has. There are very many documented cases of people with incurable illnesses or medically diagnosed terminal illnesses who have simply got better, entirely of their own accord, without medical intervention and totally without medical or biological explanation, leaving doctors dumbfounded and sometimes totally astonished that such a thing has been possible. – Because according to medicine and biology it should have been totally impossible for these people to heal and get better.
Yet they have. There are many cases of proven consciousness by people who were medically dead, ie no life signs and zero brain electrical activity, who have been able to explain exactly what happened to their body and around them, and even to events happening outside of the immediate vicinity and often with uncanny accuracy and detail! And they have often said that such consciousness has been more vivid and real than normal consciousness while awake. There has to be some kind of existence beyond our present life, for people to have had after death experiences though eventually resuscitated from being dead.
But we have yet, the word of Man throughout the ages, decribing the actual and real works of God and of Jesus in during and after Jesus’s material life, before this and up to and including the present time.
How many have survived natural or man-made disasters by some ‘premonition’ that told them to leave a place or not to board such and such a ship car, bus, train or plane?
We can marvel wonder about Life, time and space but is it too much for people to worship where we came from and how Life and human life has arisen and continues in existence?
I have presented some of the physical facets of the Universe and world around us, putting into words the marvels of life and existence, the Universe’s all-pervading structure and order, and many important things about life and ourselves that we simply cannot explain. Then we have God’s word, and human witness, to God, To Jesus and to the power of the Holy Spirit.
Bertrand Russell, one of the greatest philosophers ever, did not believe in God and Jesus for much of his life, But later on in his life, he came to believe. He had profoundly considered every aspect of life and existence and came to the conclusion that the only reasonable, in fact the only possible explanation for Life and human existence is to believe in God. And if you believe in God, then from the New Testament, which is the work of true human witness, then there is no alternative but to also believe in Jesus!
You entirely miss the point. Life has been created by the Universe. Human life is so biologically advanced as for it to have been impossible for ‘modern’ man to develop randomly in the space of 160,000 years. You can divide this timespan by the average length of a human life giving around about 2700 reproductions to get from ‘man’ walking upright and being just hunter/gatherers to our present intellect.
Although there were sub-species that link the development of man on from the development of apes, the huge and vast gulf between the brain power of apes and the brainpower of modern man could not possibly have evolved on its own over just 2 million years.
Dinosaurs did not evolve over 165 million years. Wood lice are the same now as 320 million years ago.
I repeat the one point:-
Life has been created by the Universe, and energy and matter have appeared out of nothingness. Explain this if you can!
Originally there was a chasm, Ginnungagap, bounded on either side by fire (from the world known as Muspelheim) and ice (from the world known as Niflheim). When fire and ice met, they combined to form a giant, named Ymir, and a cow, named Audhumbla (Auðhumla), who nourished Ymir. She survived by licking the salty ice blocks. From her licking emerged Bur (Búri), the grandfather of the Aesir. Ymir, father of the frost giants, sweated a male and a female from under his left arm.
Odin, the son of Bur’s son Borr, killed Ymir. The blood pouring out of the giant’s body killed all the frost giants Ymir had created, except Bergelmir. From Ymir’s dead body, Odin created the world. Ymir’s blood was the sea; his flesh, the earth; his skull, the sky; his bones, the mountains; his hair, the trees. The new Ymir-based world was Midgard. Ymir’s eyebrow was used to fence in the area where mankind would live. Around Midgard was an ocean where a serpent named Jormungand lived. He was big enough to form a ring around Midgard by putting his tail in his mouth.
From Ymir’s body grew an ash tree named Yggdrasil whose branches covered the known world and supported the universe. Ygdrasil had three roots going to each of the 3 levels of the world. Three springs supplied it with water. One root went into Asgard, the home of the gods, another went into the land of the giants, Jotunheim, and a third went to that primeval world of ice, darkness, and the dead, known as Niflheim. In Jotunheim’s spring, Mimir, lay wisdom. In Niflheim, the spring nourished the adder Nidhogge (darkness) who gnawed at the roots of Ygdrasil.
At that’s how life, and the universe, were created.
Stuff and nonsense, Alex. You see, Puff the Magic Dragon, who lived by the sea, one day coughed up a cinder ball. Infused with Puff’s magic, the cinder ball grew and grew until it grew to the size of a universe. We are part of Puff’s magic universe, and Puff watches over us.
Yes and by my understanding Puff the ‘magic’ Dragon does tricks standing on his head, will shortly run completely out of fire, and commence devouring himself whole from the inside out, or outside in.
It is said that ridicule is the lowest form of wit. Take that as you may. . . .
Your comments about Puff, and your mockery of him, amounts to persecution of Dave as a Puff worshipper
And what just, do you worship. Nothing, nobody? And your cause, atheism?
“In evidence for Christian persecution in Britain, you have cited 18 cases spread over 9 years. In many of these examples, you have failed to provide the full facts.”
I didn’t provide the full facts because this was just a summary, but the full facts for most of these cases were covered in our monthly newsletter. And while these cases were spread over 9 years, it does indicate a troubling trend. The European Court of Human Rights wouldn’t be looking into it if there was nothing there.
I’m pleased we cleared that up, then. To my mind it is slightly odd to enjoy being persecuted, but then I’m not a christian so what do I know.
I have to say though that I didn’t quite get the same glad tones of I’m-being-persecuted joy from Robin’s article.
Non-Christians have never and never will understand the cross we bear as Christians.
How can non-godly people recognize the Godly in others. It is impossible, except that with God all things are indeed possible.
It is a great shame that Christian Voice feels the need to censor comments on this site. I am not talking about profanities, just a general suppression of dissent (with one or two notable exceptions to create the illusion of discourse). It would do you as an organisation well to realise that without this, your group would fade into the ranks of other extremist hate groups, who are widely ignored.
Whilst it is true that I and several others here despise the bigotry behind what you stand for, if you are going to allow comments then you should be prepared for debate. If we post up comments that you happen to disagree with but which are articulate and fair in their argument, you should at least have the common dececy to leave it unmoderated.
Without allowing this discourse, you will fade into irrelevance. Preaching to the converted, and all that.
Christianity has not faded in over 2000 years! There is no bigotry in true Christianity, never has, never will!
The Good News, and message of the Gospels is as strong and as relevant as it ever has been. More people are converting by the thousands upon thousands (some Christian gatherings of well over 100,000 people) to being Christians in the Third World than ever before. Just because Church attendance is on the decline in the UK does not mean that the message of Christianity is not being send out into the world. It is.
If just two people join together in Christian Worship, God is there with them.
As for civilized dissent, I think Christians and Christianity have faced that through the ages, as they have faced uncivilized dissent.
We live in a civilized society, and there is no reason whatsoever for uncivilized dissent to be made public anywhere in the UK through Christian outlets. I hope that answers your questions Ian.
You will not disunite any Christians, rather showing yourself up as being unChristian and uncharitable in trying to make any divisions amongst our ranks.
True Christians are united in God’s Love – and nothing, not even the gates of hell, will prevent this.
Christianity continues and flourishes! – And we prosper in God’s Love!
“We live in a civilized society, and there is no reason whatsoever for uncivilized dissent to be made public anywhere in the UK through Christian outlets.”
So, when In November 2008 regarding Emily Mapfuwa’s display at the Baltic Centre for Contemporary Art, Stephen urged Christians to “create public disorder if [they] wish such a case to proceed in future”, and threatened that the artwork in question would “not survive being put on public display again”, would that be an example of civilised or uncivilised dissent?
Please actually read my post concerning the very large expansion of Christianity in various parts of the world. Just Google “Christ For All Nations” and you will find that Christianity is not in the least outmoded, it is thriving and flourishing as never before.
As for AIex I was referring to Christian publication outlets such as this forum, as Alex well knows.
If you would trouble to read the Bible and the New Testament in particular, you can read where Jesus over-turned the tables of those out to make money for themselves with no regard for worship and little regard for worshippers. You can also read in the Old Testament where Moses ordered the burning of the golden calf the people had slid into worshipping and its ashes cast into the sea.
As a living faith in action, Christianity is more than capable of standing up for itself and also just as capable of acting to prevent or halt gross wrong-doing in public. Public obscenity is one such case. Christians particularly dislike blasphemy and idolatry.
Our God is a righteous God. God looks after His own!
As you will Dave, God is not part of your life, so I see no reason to further explain Christianity to you. If any pending Christian is desperate for recognition, for affection, for putting the world to rights, for forgiveness of sins and for salvation, or is just in a desperate situation, that is what Christianity is all about and what it is here for. As for selfishness, we have a very jealous God, who does not tolerate idolators and disbelievers.
Jesus said “My yoke is easy and my burden is light”.
So if I’ve understood your point, Charles, uncivilised dissent is not to be used against Christians, but otherwise is fine. Similarly, Christians are at liberty to deploy uncivilised dissent against non-Christians.
And presumably, attempts to address what some might see as the obvious unfairness to these principles are guilty of persecuting said Christians?
Christians and Jesus lay claim to putting the world to rights according to God’s law. We have God as our inspiration, and ruler over all, and Jesus as our living leader and Saviour. . What is truly done in Jesus’ name is for the furtherance of God’s Kingdom.
Jesus states that he is not come to unite the world but to divide the world into those who believe and who do good, and those who do not believe and who do evil.
You will find all around the world a huge number of people who are prepared to stand up for what is right, whether they are Christians or not. So i entirely miss your point in regard to how Christians act. Christians try to act in accordance with God’s Law, and if you were come to love Jesus, you would do the same!
It’s a rather long yes in response to my query, but a yes nonetheless
Read what you will into my reply. I know what I meant about doing good works for the Lord. If your definition of ‘good’ works (eg persecuting Christians and myself), differs from mine, then so be it.
Perhaps those British Christians who are being persecuted would like to take their complaints to the victims of Bako Haram in Nigeria? I’m sure they would be deeply sympathetic to your plight.
Christians who are persecuted because of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit will not miss being rewarded when God comes in his Kingdom. Remember that Jesus said to the sinner being crucified next to Him ,who acknowledged Him “You will be with Me in Paradise tonight!”.
We bear our cross gladly, not just because of any possible future reward, but also because it is right and proper to do so, and out of our love, worship,reverence and respect for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But I do not expect you to hear, see or understand. Jesus said many things but has only opened the minds of true believers to many things.
i do note that you find the Universe full of marvels and mysteries, so we have some common ground. But the greatest mystery of all is God and all too often our ways are not God’s way and another of the greatest mysteries is Jesus giving Himself up, even unto death on the cross to save us; while we were still sinners.
When He was resurrected, He ascended into heaven to be at God’s right hand whence He will return to judge both the righteous and the dead. Had He not chosen God’s will and the path to heaven and heavenly things, He might have performed many more miracles and acts of healing and raising the dead while here on Earth. Instead He called down the Holy Spirit onto his disciples, who were thus given the power to continue His good works and to baptize others into Faith and Christian witness and into the Holy Spirit.
Hear all who would hear and lift up your eyes and see all who would see. Very many good and most excellent things have been done in Jesus’ name and so will continue to be done as good unto others until Jesus returns to establish God’s Kingdom, which will be from ever-lasting to ever-lasting.
But to you Dave this is just a patent nonsense. I am most sorry to read your sarcasm and your trying to make Christianity laughable and Christians a laughing stock. There is no reward in this for you, except from other atheists and agnostics and from the Devil himself. Even demons live in fear of God and acknowledge Jesus and if nothing else, you would do well to remember this. At some point even you will have to acknowledge God, but it will be too late then for you at the Day of Judgement, but I forgot, you don’t believe in this either.
We try to bring out the best in other people, to spread Peace and Love and to try to dissolve dissent and disharmony. Those who are not for us are against us.
I would suggest you let us carry on in our ‘nonsense’, and you carry on in yours! If it makes you feel better, you to yours! And – What you sow you will surely reap. . . .
Charles – I admit that my attempts at humour are intended as something of a blunt instrument. I think it’s a shame that piety robs you of a sense of humour. Yes, I do find what you believe to be nonsense. And although you have a perfect right to believe such absurdities, it’s a shame that your Christianity has lead you to a group like Christian Voice; a group that far from advocating love and and harmony promotes ignorance, bigotry and intolerance. But again, that’s your choice.
“I would suggest you let us carry on in our ‘nonsense’, and you carry on in yours! If it makes you feel better, you to yours! And – What you sow you will surely reap. . . .”
It is precisely the failure of Christian Voice to be able to do this- i.e. to keep out of the business of homosexual people- that is the reason that I bother posting on this site. As unfashionable as liberalism might be in the christian/ right-wing press, it is founded on the idea of live and let live.
You have every right to continue believing in Christianity, even though others might find it laughable. By the same token, gay people have every right to continue peacefully in their lifestyle, even though you might find it abhorrent. They also have a right not to be harassed, as do you.
We live and let live, promoting philosophies where we all just rub along together, despite our differences. Those who cannot accept this (such as Christian Voice, and, yes, some militant ‘evangelical’ atheists) come in for heavy criticism. Those who can (such as most people in society, and the more moderate established Church) do not. If you go around telling innocent people they are going to Hell just because you have become convinced of this by a book you have read, then you can expect a good deal of anger in response. What you sow, you will surely reap.
I have no problem with homosexuals keeping to themselves and carrying out whatever dirty business they do entirely in private.
The problem I have is people boasting about their homosexuality, boasting about their very immoral behaviour and number of homosexual encounters and homosexual ‘conquests’, and in particular, trying to pervert others.
And yes I do think homosexuality is a very dirty business indeed. The very filthiest of habits indeed.
But those who are blind cannot see. If you sow love, you will reap love. If you so further hate, that is what YOU will get in return.
But homosexuals disown God, disown the Bible and disown the Laws of and for God’s people. If you love Jesus and love God, you would not act in the way you do. If you truly loved your neighbour you would not lust over them and commit homosexual acts with them, subjecting men and boys to your lust and vulgarity.
As for any anger, there has always been the indignation of God’s people at open and public disconduct, and at perverse and wanton acts.
If you act homosexually in public and try to pervert others, you can expect and you will get just, open and honest criticism from Christians.
But you also act against God and God’s decrees, treat Jesus with spite and hatred and treat his followers in the same way.
Your anger or the anger of other homosexuals, atheists or agnostics has no meaning in the truth of things and is of no interest or concern of mine.
Jesus did not come to unite Christians in any way or form with Christians, so just get over that. Homosexuals will never have any acceptance from or by the true Christian Church, for all time and eternity. There will always be those in the Christian Church who regard homosexuality with complete distaste and utter abhorrence.
But yes, anger – you will face God’s anger and wrath; if you do not change your wretched, filthy and disgusting ways. And yes your homosexually driven public behaviour does cause true Christians profound anger.
There is no bigotry in my expressing my own true feelings, nor in God’s law being repeated to you. You do not belong here on a Christian forum as you have no belonging in Christ, yet you persist trying to change laws and views which you will never, as in never change.
If you are angry at God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Christians and God’s Law, that is YOUR problem, not mine. I suggest the solution lies with YOU.
Reading this particular post, I was fondly reminded of a time when “Viz”, back when it used to be funny, ran a strip called “Victorian Dad”. The cadence and language of the titular character was just like yours, Charles. Ahhh, the good old days
I too am fondly reminiscent of older times, when homosexuals were stoned to death. Sigh!
Christianity is as fresh and relevant now as it was in the times of Jesus.
Those who are not for God are against God.
And – By the way, they also mocked Jesus on the cross.
Your loss in not believing in Jesus is my gain. Jesus is permanent .
You are transient, and of little worth to God while you are a non-believer, and of even less worth to God if you practise homosexuality.
But even homosexuals might do some good in the world. Who knows? – It won’t be through their homosexuality though, that is for sure.
Personally, I find things like murder, rape, torture, slavery, poverty and famine to be far dirtier than two people of the same sex being in love with each other. But then I am just an atheist with no moral compass.
Each to their own, what is one man’s meat is indeed another man’s poison. And if male sexual love of another male and males lusting after males is your cup of tea it certainly is not and never will be mine.
You do and think what you want; I do what God asks and requires of me.
There is a totally unbridgeable gulf between Christians and practicing homosexuals – that cannot be resolved in any way, shape or form.
The difference between us is that I rate homosexuality as being as evil as those things you mention – which are equally abhorrent to Christians. You forget the penalty in biblical times for being caught in homosexual acts was stoning to death.
If you would push things, the only thing I find more abhorrent than wanton homosexuality is serial killings.
In this day and age we can’t even tell homosexuals to go forth and ‘multiply’, because they can’t reproduce, only pervert others in their like and likeness.
And it is a fine thing for someone like you to mention moral compass!
This doggrel puts me in mind of my old nan’s outbursts. She’s 85. Sometimes, I read your posts to her. She’s forgotten almost everything except her homophobia so your talk of stoning poofs brings a huge smile to her demented face.
Perhaps Christian Voice would like a picture of her bayoneting a gayer in her salad days to pop on the website?
Why is it that homosexuals always take things the wrong way, funny that?
Or are all homosexuals so mentally and emotionally immature that they can’t refrain from trying to turn other people into their ‘kind’, and so emotionally immature that they can’t handle criticism of any sort?
Christians are not here to appease or please homosexuals. Sorry about that, that’s the way it is.
Why is it that Christians always take things the wrong way, funny that?
Or are all Christians so mentally and emotionally immature that they can’t refrain from trying to turn other people into their ‘kind’, and so emotionally immature that they can’t handle criticism of any sort?
You may be disappointed to learn that I’m actually 100% heterosexual. Well, maybe 95%.
Charles, if I told you I was homosexual, would you pray for me to have me cured? Would you sweetie? I’m not, I happen to be straight, but it would totally turn me on.
For once, dear Charles, I’m going to do what you say. I have wasted enough time on this forum, arguing with people with the mental agility of toddlers. Fortunately, your poisonous, hateful group has no influence in the UK (you’d love Nigeria by the way- lovely at this time of year), and is only known about due to the alternately hilarious/ horrific viewpoints it showcases and the willingness of people like me, Dave and Alex to challenge you. Without us, you’re just a straight-to-video version of the Westboro Baptist Church.
I had thought of going through your ‘points’ one by one, but I think they stand well enough by themselves to prove what a troubled, pitiful character you are. Your idea of stoning to death people who are openly gay in public is interesting though. Does that mean next time I see someone praying in public or building another church I can stone them too? Probably not. I forget that all your beliefs are self-justificatory- after all, you own morality don’t you. It says so in your book.
Incidentally, I don’t think that Christianity and homosexuality are necessarily incompatible. One is a natural phenomena that has been around throughout recorded history; Christianity is quite a new kid on the block in comparison, but don’t worry- I’m sure you people will adapt in time. Still, I’ll agree with you on one point- what religion wants people who don’t procreate? If you want a good amount of followers, you need to get to children young (i.e. before the age of reason) to convert them; it’s either that or target people at vulnerable points in their lives (hello Salvation Army).
As an afterthought, has it ever occurred to you that you people spend far more time than is normal- nay, healthy- obsessing about what men who love each other do to each other behind closed doors? That perhaps…just perhaps…it might be something enjoyab…..no. Blank those thoughts out. Blank them out with hate.
I disagree slightly. Christian Voice has some potential to be an influence. Remember a couple of years ago when Elton John adopted a child, the BBC News went to Stephen Green and his opinion was broadcast on the main Nine o’clock news. That is why it important that this hate group needs to be challenged by the likes of us in any way we can.
Besides, you’re posts a breath of fresh air in this fetid environment.
Christian Voice does not in any way constitute a hate group, though OTHERS might choose to so proclaim – because they are NOT Christians and hate Christianity for teaching others to worship God, believe in Jesus and act toward others and themselves in a Christian way.
Christian Voice is here to preach the Gospel, put forward the Good News of Salvation through belief in Jesus, make commentary based on Christian laws and principles, and speak out from the Bible, to carry the message of what Christians do, what God does for us, and to bear Christian witness in regard to all things.
We also make comment on others views presenting the Christian alternatives.
If others choose to interpret our worshipping God, upholding high moral standards, admitting sinfulness, believing in Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, and professing love and caring and supporting others especially other Christians, as hate, that is their concern and their loss.
Just to make matters abundantly clear, Christians in preaching the Good News and bearing witness to God first, then Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, also admit where Christians are found wanting, act out of weakness, or sinfully, and support as well as
For us to say and proclaim in truth, and with the greatest vigour that Jesus is indeed alive today and always is the greatest message of love possible. If we believe in God, we are saved through Jesus’s love and God’s love for us. Life, love and friendship are all supremely important, after loving God, Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. We worship God for creating us, other living things and all things, Jesus for giving of Himself, even though He is the Son of God on the cross and mediating with God for our salvation, and the Holy Spirit for allowing others to act through and with God’s power and assistance.
Love does not bear hate, rather hate cannot abide Life, love and Christian friendship! But then hate does not recognize love in the first place.
Challenge what you will, Christianity bears the message of God’s love, Jesus’s love and the power and holiness of the Holy Spirit. It has even borne and overcome the challenge of non-Christians putting Jesus to death, as he is as alive today, in fact more so than than before the crucifixion.
If the greatest hate and evil ever, crucifying Jesus, has been turned entirely to good and the furtherance of goodness, life and love,
So I ask you Dave why do you persecute God, persecute Jesus and persecute Christians and Christianity? Is it out of love or hate within yourself?
Or would you try to turn the greatest love mankind has ever known to hatred, nothingness and evil?
But then you would have to know this love in the first place, before being able to comment upon it. As you do not know this love, the darkness hateth the light.
Christian Voice is here to promote Good and Goodness and Love, not hate.
You cannot love anyone else until you learn to love yourself. Take some time today to reflect on yourself. Compliment the things you love and make a plan to change the things you don’t.
Trying to mock Christians is not a good point!
God has the power to persecute you!
I am afraid of God because God has the power to destroy a living soul. I am not and never will be afraid of any living personage,including you, because they can harm by my body, but they cannot harm my soul.
There’s no hatred involved. There is nothing natural about homosexuality, it is completely unnatural and a totally avoidable behaviour. I have already said that what others do out of public is ‘their business’, though having said that,it still comes under God’s Judgement.
The problem publicly is in their publicly accosting males who mostly have no wish to be so accosted and find approaches by homosexuals detestable, trying to pervert others and making their homosexuality widely known. Advertising homosexuality is morally indefensible, it is not by definition normal behaviour.
Just a very small percentage of males – who also happen to be homosexuals – are responsible for the majority of sexual crimes against males, many of these crimes being against younger adolescents or young boys, of almost any age upwards.
The morality of homosexuals is appalling and abhorrent in its absence, with their having100’s if not 1000’sof homosexual relationships per homosexual.
They aggressively promote homosexuality to the distaste and often disgust of the general population, and their looseness of morals leads to generally other very immoral behaviour.
We not only detest the homosexual act, but also their generally very loose morals, which unfortunately all too often pervades the rest of their sorry existences. Their is no self-righteousness in this. Christians with any thought for other people and for God do not behave in this way, as it an unseemly and improper thing to do and we – choose – not to so act ourselves.
Ian, you show your own brainwashing and religious beliefs you say” It is true that we don’t know what triggered the Big Bang; it doesn’t follow from this that the god from your books did it” For starters you are confusing a hypothesis with a fact, the so-called big bang does not even qualify as as theory through lack of evidence, its mere hypothesis not a scientific fact. infact it leaves you with the bigger problem than the creator God. You either have to believe in eternal matter and energy or something from nothing with no intelligence behind it but blind eternal forces or blind something from nothing magic. The big bang is your cauldren, time is your magic wand, and nothing is the spell caster. God says you are without excuse for not believing as creation is self evident if you have not been blinded by the false religion of philosophy and science falsely called. Of course christians are facing more and more persecution in direct proportion to the ever falling rates of morality. Of course the social engineering immoral leaders hate the christian stance of standing in the morality of God and not the subjective morality from the minds of the social engineers. Of course they hate the fact that we will obey God and not man when it comes to morality. Of course they are using militant homosexuality, sexual depravity, greed and the breakdown of traditional marriage and morals with social engineeering to destroy this christian country. They “tolerate” anything but God’s truth don’t they. They are the real haters as they hate christians with a passion for refusing to fall for their social engineering, depravity, selfisness, idolatry, immorality and the fact we don’t celebrate our sins. Their hate crimes against christians and intolerance of anyone who disagrees with them along with the utter hypocricy beggers belief.
On the other hand Christ said we would be persecuted for our beliefs and that the world would hate us, its an honour to be counted in this company and to sufferfor the name of Jesus as it means we are the narrow path of truth.
We do not hate homosexuals specifically for their homosexual conduct though that is bad enough in itself. We hate particularly the avoidance of acting with any sort of morals, their promoting homosexuality, and their publicizing homosexual lifestyles.
I can think of several people who are/were homosexuals who do not/did not publicize and boast about their homosexuality, who were excellent entertainers and had a shred of decency about themselves, and are/were generally reasonable and having with a decent public manner about them. Aside of their homosexuality, they are/were genuinely very decent people. Unfortunately, though, some of their colleagues have in some cases, been left bitter at homosexual approaches by them.
As Christians, we think it better altogether to abstain from such behaviour, rather than to give in to homosexual lusts. It is also very inappropriate and very damaging for homosexuals to use this to get preferential treatment under ‘equality’ laws – that seem to make concessions to homosexuals that are denied to everyone else, force their homosexuality on others, or to attempt to change societies norms and institutions such as marriage, which is by definition the union between a man and a woman.
For myself, and for most decent people in general, if I had never heard of the term homosexuals, and did not know such a ‘thing’ existed, I would have a much happier life.
As one example of the immense damage homosexuals can cause, Catholic adoption agencies who did very good work in placing children in safe environments within loving and ‘normal’ families, were forced out of existence by homosexuals pursuing ‘equality’. It is quite impossible, and totally incompatible with Christian beliefs for a Christian agency to in any way put children into a potentially devastatingly dangerous homosexual environment, where such (innocent) children might be subjected to homosexual immorality and homosexual outlooks in life.
It is their dangerous influence on ‘normal’ society that poses the biggest threat. Quiet, hidden ‘tolerance’ – if not outirght acceptance – is one thing. Their attempting to pervert and destroy society as we know it is quite something else.
I believe and consider that the dangerous behaviour of many, if not most homosexuals, against young and very young males, their accosting of normal males, and their attempts to destroy the fabric of a decent society are enough in themselves for us to be very wary of homosexuals and their motives.
Christians and Christianity have very good reasons, aside of God’s detesting homosexual conduct, in disliking and doing all that can be done to lessen dangerous influences on individuals and on society in general. Christians dislike and detest the dangerous purveyance of homosexual ethics across society in general, to the detriment of us all, excepting homosexuals who are the only ones to gain anything out of corrupting society, by their actions.
It’s completely amazing and very wonderful how many people with fragile psyches have been helped very greatly indeed by religion, transforming their lives very much for the better!
A piece of scripture comes to mind ‘Do not cast your pearls before swine’.
This may never be read but I felt the Lord wanted me to write it.
As regards to God’s love. He wants that none should perish and that all should have the chance to come to know Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. We all have our own choices to make, whether we want to believe and accept Him as our Lord and Saviour or not.
I had always thought of myself as a Christian, indeed I would often pray to God in times of trouble. However my life was certainly not that of a Christian although I would help people out, do good deeds etcetera. Prior to my becoming a Christian ‘A follower of Jesus’ I lived my life as I wanted to. As time went on I started to drink more and more and my morels became such that I was in lots of different relationships and one night stands and there was probably not one swear word that I did not use. I thought this behaviour was OK at the time, after all we are told every day by the media ‘That if it feels good do it’ or ‘Your worth it’.
The next will sound very strange to someone who has not experienced this and in fact if someone had said to me that I would stop clubbing, drinking, smoking, sleeping around and swearing and start going to church I would have told them they were stupid and to basically get on their bike.
However that is exactly what happened to me.
My boyfriend’s mother was a borne again Christian, he wasn’t, and eventually she asked me if I would like to go to church with her, to which I replied no thank you, but, not wanting to upset her too much I said if she found me a lively church to go to I would go with her. To which she pulled out a leaflet and said, ‘Actually I was given this leaflet yesterday by two guys in the market and their words were that she might like their church as it was quite lively’. As I had already put my foot in it I felt obliged to go. The following week we went to this church and I cannot explain this but as I walked through the doors I felt as if I had come home – very strange. We went for a few weeks and all I could do was cry and I could not explain why. Eventually a lady from the congregation asked me if I wanted to ask Jesus into my life as my Lord and Saviour and although I did not understand what she was saying at the time I just knew I did. She led me in what is called the sinners prayer which is basically telling God that you are sorry for all you have done wrong and asking Jesus to come into your life as your Lord and Saviour. She said I may not feel any different but that Jesus had come to live in me by the power of the Holy Spirit. Not feeling any different and still not understanding what she had said or what I had done we left.
I found myself wanting to read the Bible and wanting to go to church, even though she said she wanted to go back to her own church, which she did, I continued going to church. My children laughed at me and told me it was my age, I was 47 at the time, and told me that it would last 6 months.
After a few weeks of being greeted by my children with ‘Hallelujah Praise the Lord’ she’s here again after going to church they said to me, ‘Actually mum it’s not too bad this going to church thing cos we can just about get away with murder and you don’t scream and ball at us like you used to’. My work colleagues and friends noticed I had stopped swearing and eventually I realised I had stopped drinking alcohol. I previously drank baccardi and coke when I got home from work, I’d had a bad day I used to tell my self, and had started drinking at lunchtime too, and I would be in the clubs or lock ups in the pub till the early hours and I had found I couldn’t get drunk any more I was so used to drinking.
No one at church ever said to me, though shalt not drink, shout at your children, stop swearing, smoking etc it just happened and eventually He showed me that I should not be sleeping with my boyfriend. We were going to get married as we ‘loved’ each other, but the funny thing is that although he said he respected my wishes not to sleep together any more our relationship did not last very long once sex was not in the equation. I realised we were not in love but in ‘lust’ as had happened so many times in my life.
Eventually I realised that by asking Jesus into my life to be my Lord and Saviour I had given God the authority to change me, to actually be a true follower of Christ and live the life He wanted me to live. I have found so much freedom, love and peace in my life that I would not want to change it for the world. I am not saying being a Christian is easy because it isn’t but God helps you through all the trials of this world we live in and yes we do get ridiculed for our faith and the way we live our lives but I would much rather live this life than live the way I was before.
Please don’t get me wrong, I do make mistakes, a wrong thought, word or deed, I am not perfect and any Christian who says they don’t do wrong are not telling the truth so are sinning. However, as Christians we try our best to follow Christ and should we make a mistake we know we can come to our loving Heavenly Father and He will forgive us and help us not to make the same mistakes again. It may take a while but He does not give up on us and He’s always there for us.
I know you will find this hard to believe or understand the same as I did but unless you give God a chance you will never know what true love is. John 3:16.
As for the subject of homosexuality;
One of my nephews is ‘gay’ and I love him just as much now as I did before he ‘came out’, but I do not like the sin he is committing against God. God loves him even more than I do, just as He loved me when I was a ‘fornicator’. He loves us but not the sins we commit. He loves everyone and He can free us from the sin that binds us that causes deep down hurt and separates us from Him. Everyone wants to be loved by someone to be accepted just as they are. Come to Jesus as I did, give Him a chance, Let Him show you what true love is. As a Christian I pray for my nephew and his boyfriend to come to know the Lord, as I do believe in Heaven and hell and I want them both to go to Heaven. I know the Lord can change them as He has changed other homosexuals and other sinners like myself but we have to make our own choices, we all have a right to choose which way we want to go. I pray they will choose eternal life and you will too. God bless you all.
[…] Originally Posted by non-religious You're not being persecuted. Your sensibilities are being somewhat offended, but I would be happy to read a list, provided by you, that illustrates evidence that persecution is occurring in the UK. Of course the examples will have to specifically apply only to Christians. Thanks Happy to oblige! It's quite long but please read the whole thing. The Persecution of Christians in Britain (Part 2) – Christian Voice UK […]
In evidence for Christian persecution in Britian, you have cited 18 cases spread over 9 years. In many of these examples, you have failed to provide the full facts.
Case dismissed.
“The British church would again suffer persecution in the 16th century under the reign of Mary Tudor, appropriately nicknamed Bloody Mary. Mary reversed the reforms of her brother Edward VI in an attempt to return England to Catholicism. Around 280 Protestants were executed, mostly through burning alive…”
Of course, this doesn’t even begin to compare thousands of Christians who are burned alive in 21st Century Britain every day. And as for those who can’t wear a crucifix for health ands safety reasons…ooh, don’t get me started.
Nice to see that the above people on here,most of whom are very clearly anti christian and anti God, still take the time to visit this website, read the articles and even post a comment, nice one lads!
I’m not anti god (or gods) because I don’t believe any exist. Neither am I anti Christian. You just choose to see me that way because I am anti Christian Voice.
You can be anti whatever you want, but it does not change the fact your taking the time to read and post a comment, and as christians we like to see that.
“Nice to see that the above people on here,most of whom are very clearly anti christian and anti God, still take the time to visit this website, read the articles and even post a comment, nice one lads!”
You need us. It’s lonely out there, being ignored in the cold alongside the other hate groups.
”You need us. It’s lonely out there, being ignored in the cold alongside the other hate groups.”
Keep telling yourself that and you might just convince yourself it’s true! I always have a giggle when i hear people lump christianity as a hate group, and i have an even bigger giggle when that comes from someone who ”hates” christianity! lol, I look forward to you taking the time to come on here again, read an article and write another post.
I don’t need to repeat things endlessly to myself to convince myself that they are true. That’s more of a faith-based approach.
To your point about lumping all of christianity as a hate group- I’m not. There are a lot of Christian groups in the world doing good work, especially in the charitable sector.
I’m charging this particular poisonous interpretation of it with being a hate group. Suicide amongst gay teenagers is a shameful indictment of the levels of intolerance in our society. Your group’s poisonous rhetoric contributes to that. That is why I call this a hate group.
I don’t hate Christianity. Personally, I am contemptuous of it, in the same way as I would be with anyone who chose to run their life according to fairy stories or what self-proclaimed gurus tell them to do, and I dislike the Church as an institution, but if Christianity floats your boat and you don’t feel you’re wasting your time then by all means go for it.
Where it becomes hateful and goes beyond acceptability is when you start telling other people how to live their lives, and tell vulnerable people that they are going to go to your hell because of what it says in your book. That, to me, is way beyond the pale.
Where is your evidence of what christians have to say leads to suicide in gay teenagers??
And you want to talk about fairy stories, tell me then, if a supernatural God did not create life and everything around you, where then did it come from?,how did it happen?, do you actually believe the nonsense that nothing created something?, that’s not even scientific let alone possible!!
“Where is your evidence of what christians have to say leads to suicide in gay teenagers??”
Harassment due to sexual orientation is one of the leading factors contributing to suicide amongst gay teenagers. The hateful rhetoric that this organisation pumps out directly contributes to that same culture of intolerance. Ask yourself if you think you are making it easier or harder for these people. Or will you not stop until you have a statistically significant number of suicide notes that specifically reference your organisation?
“And you want to talk about fairy stories, tell me then, if a supernatural God did not create life and everything around you, where then did it come from?,how did it happen?, do you actually believe the nonsense that nothing created something?, that’s not even scientific let alone possible!!”
Positing a god figure performing creation doesn’t answer any of the questions you put. It makes as much sense as suggesting it was done by Allah, a magical monkey, the flying spaghetti monster or some fairies. It is true that we don’t know what triggered the Big Bang; it doesn’t follow from this that the god from your books did it.
Good admission Ian, that you don’t know. There is indeed as much evidence that everything can spring from nothing as that talking up homosexuality in school reduces bullying. The latter merely gives bullies a new weapon to use against children who are different in some way.
I don’t buy that at all, i think you find it very easy and convenient to blame christians, as most people do for a lot of things.
Only to the ignorant does a creator God make no sense and its usually because they realise they will stand and give an account for the life they’ve lived, it dosn’t matter how you dress it up, none of what exists around you is possible without a creator.
I once watched an interview with richard dawkins, when he was asked how it was possible without a creator he replied ” i think alien life evolved on another planet and that they came here and seeded earth”, this man laughs and scoffs at christians and a creator God but thinks that this is a plausible idea!!, don’t make me laugh.
There are a lot of negative things going on in my life at the moment. I don’t even blame your deity for them, never mind his Christian lackeys.
Would that be this exchange between Dawkins and Ben Stein?
BEN STEIN: What do you think is the possibility that Intelligent Design might turn out to be the answer to some issues in genetics or in evolution?
DAWKINS: Well, it could come about in the following way. It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved, probably by some kind of Darwinian means, probably to a very high level of technology, and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now, um, now that is a possibility, and an intriguing possibility. And I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer.
Very different to the paraphrasing above, but why let the truth and accuracy stand in the way of a good polemic?
Fred Hoyle rejected evolution as being mathematically impossible but he also thought life arrived here from outer space. It only puts the question of how life began another remove away.
“I don’t buy that at all, i think you find it very easy and convenient to blame christians, as most people do for a lot of things.”
You addressed none of my arguments about the plight of homosexual teenagers, dismissing them out of hand. You then started banging out about Creationism, and asserted that anyone who does not believe in your creator god idea is ‘ignorant’. How very convenient. And how surprising that so many people find this branch of extremist christianity to be supercilious and holier-than-thou. Can’t think where that comes from, myself.
“Good admission Ian, that you don’t know. There is indeed as much evidence that everything can spring from nothing as that talking up homosexuality in school reduces bullying. The latter merely gives bullies a new weapon to use against children who are different in some way.”
Stephen. Until you stop abusing your position as site moderator to delete comments with which you disagree, even your well-argued points don’t warrant a response.
Fortunately this one is self-evidently nothing of the sort, as it deliberately conflates two entirely distinct and unrelated arguments- one relating to Creationism and the other being your organisation’s encouragement of the culture of bullying and hatred towards gay teenagers.
I note your comments have been published …
There is nothing in what we do that encourages bullying. It is organisations like ‘Schools Out’ and people like Gareth Thomas who talk up ‘gay bullying’ who give bullies a new weapon.
Oh, by the way, here is an ‘anti-bullying’ homosexual activist bullying students:
http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/gay-anti-bully-activist-savages-christians/?cat_orig=education
You’re too kind, Steven. Too kind.
So, just to be clear- it’s Gareth Thomas’ fault that gay kids are getting bullied? Until now I had laboured under the delusion that he had made a very brave and difficult decision to reveal his natural sexual preference in an overwhelmingly homophobic sport, but now I see that he was maliciously trying to make life harder for gay teens. I do apologise, I’m a little slow at times.
Not a very brave and difficult decision when his career was all but over. No, maybe he thinks he’s helping advance the homosexual cause, but he is empowering bullies to pick on children who are just a bit different. And I don’t buy the guff about ‘gay teens’ by the way. Many adolescents go through a sexually confused time. The last thing they need is some authority figure saying that a transient crush is a fixed homosexual orientation.
Alex, mine is not ”very different”, its the short version!
Stephen, I’m sure the mental health profession across the globe, and in particular child and adolescent psychiatry and psychology, is hugely grateful that you’re on hand to tell them that the preponderance of empirical research on the formation of human sexuality is flawed.
“Fred Hoyle rejected evolution as being mathematically impossible but he also thought life arrived here from outer space.”
Fred Hoyle appears to have been something of a contrarian. However, he was an atheist and acknowledged the scientific truth of evolution, but rejected abiogenesis.
Could be alex.
Sorry this is a somewhat lengthy post, but to put things into a scientific perspective at some point one has to acknowledge powers and forces beyond our explanation. Scientists know for example the effect of gravity, yet it is a totally unseen force, that we cannot replicate in any way except as an attracting force between matter. We are unable to replicate gravity and have no idea at all about its nature, except that the bigger the mass, the larger the pull of gravity. It is a property of matter, but it is invisible, cannot be detected except by its effects and cannot be altered in any way.
I write this against the doctrines of and the influence of the ‘New Atheists’.
Whichever way you look at it, life exists. The ability for inorganic materials to form into organic compounds and eventually develop into life is either a property of Nature or a God-given quality.
We are not able to replicate the process, after all it took hundreds of millions of years for the first living cells to develop. Scientists are unable to say what the difference between life and inorganic non-life is. They cannot even define life itself. But the complexity of evolution is such that random events do not seem to provide the answer. As an example, if every atom on the planet was a typewriter churning out random text continuously, not one of them would produce something as ordered or relatively simple as a Shakespeare play even over 4.5 billion years; the age of the Earth.
The point is, life determines itself, it determines its own actions and influences the further development of life. Life is not a random arrangement of atoms, it is a very specific and very ordered arrangement, and more complex life forms can decide on their own course of actions. From the stimuli around them, even ants have a very large choice in how they behave and how and where they move to. Larger complexes of some insects, such as termites, bees and ants act with the accumulated intelligence of all of their members and have a structured ordered society, not in our terms of course, but way, way beyond the intelligence of a single ant. So it is with us as people, the accumulated knowledge and intelligence of the ‘world of people’ at large is beyond measure removed from one individuals knowledge and complete understanding.
But I have strayed rather from the point. The entire universe is ordered by the laws of physics and chemistry. The structure of time and space is consistent throughout the known universe, even if influenced by very large masses such as stars in their immediate proximity. And as biological life has developed; by the laws of biology. The structure of atoms is identical anywhere in the universe. Electromagnetic radiation is identical here or across the furthest reaches of the universe. So the universe has a structure which is constant throughout space and time.
We have consciousness, as do all animal species, but human consciousness is of the self-awareness nature. Only about 4 species on our planet are self-aware and can recognise themselves in a mirror. Chimpanzees, Orang-Utangs, Dolphins and people. But we as people are as far removed from Chimpanzees as Chimpanzees are from insects in terms of our innate intelligence and abilities.
But how did our universe have exactly this structure of 98 naturally occuring elements, 80 of which are stable? The other 18 elements decay over time, and man has produced 10 additional non-naturally occurring elements. Atoms are highly ordered and structured matter. But how does the universe have this structure, and ordering, and time. What is energy, the most basic building block of the universe. Put together energy, space and time and you have the Universe.
But you also have to add Life into the equation , which has developed out of these. And love, though completely non-material is a profound feature amongst higher animal species and people. Then there is consciousness.We have computers that can vastly exceed human calculation and human rates of thought, but computers are not conscious in any way and neither are they capable of any kind of independent
thought processes, nor can they in any way determine their own actions. Computers do not have a conscience. If they tell their users to sell at such and such a price, ethics do not come into it.
So what is consciousness, what is this property of being alive? What is time itself? No-one has yet come up with even the faintest of answers. We simply don’t know. We exist, they exist. We may know scientifically how the human species has arisen, but we cannot say what our most basic attribute as people is, nor where it comes from. We may have physical answers as to what sustains the human body and we may know that chemical and electrical processes happen in our brain, but we haven’t the foggiest notion as to what human consciousness is, nor about what exactly constitutes Life.
We are, so we have consciousness and know about our own consciousness, but we can’t explain it at all, in any way.
There is order out of nothingness, order out of chaos and disorder, and energy, time and space exist. We can travel through nothingness, empty space, as indeed some of our astronauts have, but we have only the most limited notion of how far this nothingness continues. How far this empty space goes on for, we simply don’t know.
And out of this nothingness has come energy and time; matter has come into existence out of pure energy and even we ourselves have developed from pure energy. How can the Universe have this structure and this ability, this ability to define itself?
So the Universe has the ability to be structured and ordered in exactly the same way completely across and throughout the Universe. Inorganic matter can somehow produce organic matter and life can come into existence, so the Universe has the ability to produce life. The Universe maintains existence and maintains life. We exist because the Sun exists and continues to provide heat and light. Yet there are trillions of stars across the Universe.
Is it any wonder that man has called the power and structure behind the Universe God?
Science and God can co-exist. Science may not be able to prove that there is a God, but neither can they disprove it. We know from historical records that Jesus lived about 2000 years ago. It is totally inconceivable that the witness to Jesus having risen from the dead would have continued, had He not so risen. His disciples and the other followers of Jesus would have disbanded or gone on to form completely different sects with other beliefs. That they did not is living testimony to the truth of the Gospels and the preaching of the Good News. Jesus is indeed risen and He will surely return at the coming of God’s Kingdom!
I will lighten this lengthy discourse. Do not join dangerous organizations. Practice safe sects! And nothing is safer than Christianity and God and Jesus’s Love!
We are only here because of a series of catrastrophic (in terms of previous life forms on the planet) happenings that have happened from Space, such as major meteorite collisions. Were these intentional and timed to be of the required use, or just random events that ‘just’ happened to happen at exactly the right time?
It is of course a huge step to saying that the Universe itself has consciousness, and that it directs itself, but if even the lowliest of species can decide their own actions, who can speak for the entirety of the Universe, or indeed various parts of the Universe?
We simply do not know what power consciousness and conscious thought has. There are very many documented cases of people with incurable illnesses or medically diagnosed terminal illnesses who have simply got better, entirely of their own accord, without medical intervention and totally without medical or biological explanation, leaving doctors dumbfounded and sometimes totally astonished that such a thing has been possible. – Because according to medicine and biology it should have been totally impossible for these people to heal and get better.
Yet they have. There are many cases of proven consciousness by people who were medically dead, ie no life signs and zero brain electrical activity, who have been able to explain exactly what happened to their body and around them, and even to events happening outside of the immediate vicinity and often with uncanny accuracy and detail! And they have often said that such consciousness has been more vivid and real than normal consciousness while awake. There has to be some kind of existence beyond our present life, for people to have had after death experiences though eventually resuscitated from being dead.
But we have yet, the word of Man throughout the ages, decribing the actual and real works of God and of Jesus in during and after Jesus’s material life, before this and up to and including the present time.
How many have survived natural or man-made disasters by some ‘premonition’ that told them to leave a place or not to board such and such a ship car, bus, train or plane?
We can marvel wonder about Life, time and space but is it too much for people to worship where we came from and how Life and human life has arisen and continues in existence?
I have presented some of the physical facets of the Universe and world around us, putting into words the marvels of life and existence, the Universe’s all-pervading structure and order, and many important things about life and ourselves that we simply cannot explain. Then we have God’s word, and human witness, to God, To Jesus and to the power of the Holy Spirit.
Bertrand Russell, one of the greatest philosophers ever, did not believe in God and Jesus for much of his life, But later on in his life, he came to believe. He had profoundly considered every aspect of life and existence and came to the conclusion that the only reasonable, in fact the only possible explanation for Life and human existence is to believe in God. And if you believe in God, then from the New Testament, which is the work of true human witness, then there is no alternative but to also believe in Jesus!
But don’t you see, answering these marvels and mysteries with a supernatural cause is just too easy and too simple?
You entirely miss the point. Life has been created by the Universe. Human life is so biologically advanced as for it to have been impossible for ‘modern’ man to develop randomly in the space of 160,000 years. You can divide this timespan by the average length of a human life giving around about 2700 reproductions to get from ‘man’ walking upright and being just hunter/gatherers to our present intellect.
Although there were sub-species that link the development of man on from the development of apes, the huge and vast gulf between the brain power of apes and the brainpower of modern man could not possibly have evolved on its own over just 2 million years.
Dinosaurs did not evolve over 165 million years. Wood lice are the same now as 320 million years ago.
I repeat the one point:-
Life has been created by the Universe, and energy and matter have appeared out of nothingness. Explain this if you can!
Well, you see, it’s explained like this…
Originally there was a chasm, Ginnungagap, bounded on either side by fire (from the world known as Muspelheim) and ice (from the world known as Niflheim). When fire and ice met, they combined to form a giant, named Ymir, and a cow, named Audhumbla (Auðhumla), who nourished Ymir. She survived by licking the salty ice blocks. From her licking emerged Bur (Búri), the grandfather of the Aesir. Ymir, father of the frost giants, sweated a male and a female from under his left arm.
Odin, the son of Bur’s son Borr, killed Ymir. The blood pouring out of the giant’s body killed all the frost giants Ymir had created, except Bergelmir. From Ymir’s dead body, Odin created the world. Ymir’s blood was the sea; his flesh, the earth; his skull, the sky; his bones, the mountains; his hair, the trees. The new Ymir-based world was Midgard. Ymir’s eyebrow was used to fence in the area where mankind would live. Around Midgard was an ocean where a serpent named Jormungand lived. He was big enough to form a ring around Midgard by putting his tail in his mouth.
From Ymir’s body grew an ash tree named Yggdrasil whose branches covered the known world and supported the universe. Ygdrasil had three roots going to each of the 3 levels of the world. Three springs supplied it with water. One root went into Asgard, the home of the gods, another went into the land of the giants, Jotunheim, and a third went to that primeval world of ice, darkness, and the dead, known as Niflheim. In Jotunheim’s spring, Mimir, lay wisdom. In Niflheim, the spring nourished the adder Nidhogge (darkness) who gnawed at the roots of Ygdrasil.
At that’s how life, and the universe, were created.
Stuff and nonsense, Alex. You see, Puff the Magic Dragon, who lived by the sea, one day coughed up a cinder ball. Infused with Puff’s magic, the cinder ball grew and grew until it grew to the size of a universe. We are part of Puff’s magic universe, and Puff watches over us.
Yes and by my understanding Puff the ‘magic’ Dragon does tricks standing on his head, will shortly run completely out of fire, and commence devouring himself whole from the inside out, or outside in.
It is said that ridicule is the lowest form of wit. Take that as you may. . . .
Your comments about Puff, and your mockery of him, amounts to persecution of Dave as a Puff worshipper
And what just, do you worship. Nothing, nobody? And your cause, atheism?
“In evidence for Christian persecution in Britain, you have cited 18 cases spread over 9 years. In many of these examples, you have failed to provide the full facts.”
I didn’t provide the full facts because this was just a summary, but the full facts for most of these cases were covered in our monthly newsletter. And while these cases were spread over 9 years, it does indicate a troubling trend. The European Court of Human Rights wouldn’t be looking into it if there was nothing there.
Christians have always been persecuted for their beliefs and for their faith since Jesus came into the world.
It is a cross we bear gladly!
Charles- If you enjoy being persecuted so much, why moan about it?
Sorry, I don’t understand you. I’m in no way moaning. Christians have the greatest joy to rejoice in, whatever the cost!
When I say we bear the cross and any resulting persecution gladly i mean just that, for our Lord’s sake!
I’m pleased we cleared that up, then. To my mind it is slightly odd to enjoy being persecuted, but then I’m not a christian so what do I know.
I have to say though that I didn’t quite get the same glad tones of I’m-being-persecuted joy from Robin’s article.
Non-Christians have never and never will understand the cross we bear as Christians.
How can non-godly people recognize the Godly in others. It is impossible, except that with God all things are indeed possible.
It is a great shame that Christian Voice feels the need to censor comments on this site. I am not talking about profanities, just a general suppression of dissent (with one or two notable exceptions to create the illusion of discourse). It would do you as an organisation well to realise that without this, your group would fade into the ranks of other extremist hate groups, who are widely ignored.
Whilst it is true that I and several others here despise the bigotry behind what you stand for, if you are going to allow comments then you should be prepared for debate. If we post up comments that you happen to disagree with but which are articulate and fair in their argument, you should at least have the common dececy to leave it unmoderated.
Without allowing this discourse, you will fade into irrelevance. Preaching to the converted, and all that.
Christianity has not faded in over 2000 years! There is no bigotry in true Christianity, never has, never will!
The Good News, and message of the Gospels is as strong and as relevant as it ever has been. More people are converting by the thousands upon thousands (some Christian gatherings of well over 100,000 people) to being Christians in the Third World than ever before. Just because Church attendance is on the decline in the UK does not mean that the message of Christianity is not being send out into the world. It is.
If just two people join together in Christian Worship, God is there with them.
As for civilized dissent, I think Christians and Christianity have faced that through the ages, as they have faced uncivilized dissent.
We live in a civilized society, and there is no reason whatsoever for uncivilized dissent to be made public anywhere in the UK through Christian outlets. I hope that answers your questions Ian.
You will not disunite any Christians, rather showing yourself up as being unChristian and uncharitable in trying to make any divisions amongst our ranks.
True Christians are united in God’s Love – and nothing, not even the gates of hell, will prevent this.
Christianity continues and flourishes! – And we prosper in God’s Love!
Well done Robin! Much appreciated!
Post Modern Relativism – you covered this well! Well done!
“These celebrity atheists have not only tried to make Christian orthodoxy seem outmoded and ridiculous…”
Who needs to try? It already is.
“We live in a civilized society, and there is no reason whatsoever for uncivilized dissent to be made public anywhere in the UK through Christian outlets.”
So, when In November 2008 regarding Emily Mapfuwa’s display at the Baltic Centre for Contemporary Art, Stephen urged Christians to “create public disorder if [they] wish such a case to proceed in future”, and threatened that the artwork in question would “not survive being put on public display again”, would that be an example of civilised or uncivilised dissent?
Please actually read my post concerning the very large expansion of Christianity in various parts of the world. Just Google “Christ For All Nations” and you will find that Christianity is not in the least outmoded, it is thriving and flourishing as never before.
As for AIex I was referring to Christian publication outlets such as this forum, as Alex well knows.
If you would trouble to read the Bible and the New Testament in particular, you can read where Jesus over-turned the tables of those out to make money for themselves with no regard for worship and little regard for worshippers. You can also read in the Old Testament where Moses ordered the burning of the golden calf the people had slid into worshipping and its ashes cast into the sea.
As a living faith in action, Christianity is more than capable of standing up for itself and also just as capable of acting to prevent or halt gross wrong-doing in public. Public obscenity is one such case. Christians particularly dislike blasphemy and idolatry.
Our God is a righteous God. God looks after His own!
God looks after his own? Presumably, Charles, you desperately want to be one of them. Doesn’t that make your Christianity rather selfish?
As you will Dave, God is not part of your life, so I see no reason to further explain Christianity to you. If any pending Christian is desperate for recognition, for affection, for putting the world to rights, for forgiveness of sins and for salvation, or is just in a desperate situation, that is what Christianity is all about and what it is here for. As for selfishness, we have a very jealous God, who does not tolerate idolators and disbelievers.
Jesus said “My yoke is easy and my burden is light”.
So if I’ve understood your point, Charles, uncivilised dissent is not to be used against Christians, but otherwise is fine. Similarly, Christians are at liberty to deploy uncivilised dissent against non-Christians.
And presumably, attempts to address what some might see as the obvious unfairness to these principles are guilty of persecuting said Christians?
Christians and Jesus lay claim to putting the world to rights according to God’s law. We have God as our inspiration, and ruler over all, and Jesus as our living leader and Saviour. . What is truly done in Jesus’ name is for the furtherance of God’s Kingdom.
Jesus states that he is not come to unite the world but to divide the world into those who believe and who do good, and those who do not believe and who do evil.
You will find all around the world a huge number of people who are prepared to stand up for what is right, whether they are Christians or not. So i entirely miss your point in regard to how Christians act. Christians try to act in accordance with God’s Law, and if you were come to love Jesus, you would do the same!
It’s a rather long yes in response to my query, but a yes nonetheless
Read what you will into my reply. I know what I meant about doing good works for the Lord. If your definition of ‘good’ works (eg persecuting Christians and myself), differs from mine, then so be it.
Perhaps those British Christians who are being persecuted would like to take their complaints to the victims of Bako Haram in Nigeria? I’m sure they would be deeply sympathetic to your plight.
What is God’s Way for me, is very apparently not God’s way for you!
And if you say, who says you believe in God, well I certainly have never said this to you.
Christians who are persecuted because of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit will not miss being rewarded when God comes in his Kingdom. Remember that Jesus said to the sinner being crucified next to Him ,who acknowledged Him “You will be with Me in Paradise tonight!”.
We bear our cross gladly, not just because of any possible future reward, but also because it is right and proper to do so, and out of our love, worship,reverence and respect for God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But I do not expect you to hear, see or understand. Jesus said many things but has only opened the minds of true believers to many things.
i do note that you find the Universe full of marvels and mysteries, so we have some common ground. But the greatest mystery of all is God and all too often our ways are not God’s way and another of the greatest mysteries is Jesus giving Himself up, even unto death on the cross to save us; while we were still sinners.
When He was resurrected, He ascended into heaven to be at God’s right hand whence He will return to judge both the righteous and the dead. Had He not chosen God’s will and the path to heaven and heavenly things, He might have performed many more miracles and acts of healing and raising the dead while here on Earth. Instead He called down the Holy Spirit onto his disciples, who were thus given the power to continue His good works and to baptize others into Faith and Christian witness and into the Holy Spirit.
Hear all who would hear and lift up your eyes and see all who would see. Very many good and most excellent things have been done in Jesus’ name and so will continue to be done as good unto others until Jesus returns to establish God’s Kingdom, which will be from ever-lasting to ever-lasting.
But to you Dave this is just a patent nonsense. I am most sorry to read your sarcasm and your trying to make Christianity laughable and Christians a laughing stock. There is no reward in this for you, except from other atheists and agnostics and from the Devil himself. Even demons live in fear of God and acknowledge Jesus and if nothing else, you would do well to remember this. At some point even you will have to acknowledge God, but it will be too late then for you at the Day of Judgement, but I forgot, you don’t believe in this either.
We try to bring out the best in other people, to spread Peace and Love and to try to dissolve dissent and disharmony. Those who are not for us are against us.
I would suggest you let us carry on in our ‘nonsense’, and you carry on in yours! If it makes you feel better, you to yours! And – What you sow you will surely reap. . . .
Charles – I admit that my attempts at humour are intended as something of a blunt instrument. I think it’s a shame that piety robs you of a sense of humour. Yes, I do find what you believe to be nonsense. And although you have a perfect right to believe such absurdities, it’s a shame that your Christianity has lead you to a group like Christian Voice; a group that far from advocating love and and harmony promotes ignorance, bigotry and intolerance. But again, that’s your choice.
Any ignorance, bigotry and intolerance resides elsewhere. Perhaps with you?
“I would suggest you let us carry on in our ‘nonsense’, and you carry on in yours! If it makes you feel better, you to yours! And – What you sow you will surely reap. . . .”
It is precisely the failure of Christian Voice to be able to do this- i.e. to keep out of the business of homosexual people- that is the reason that I bother posting on this site. As unfashionable as liberalism might be in the christian/ right-wing press, it is founded on the idea of live and let live.
You have every right to continue believing in Christianity, even though others might find it laughable. By the same token, gay people have every right to continue peacefully in their lifestyle, even though you might find it abhorrent. They also have a right not to be harassed, as do you.
We live and let live, promoting philosophies where we all just rub along together, despite our differences. Those who cannot accept this (such as Christian Voice, and, yes, some militant ‘evangelical’ atheists) come in for heavy criticism. Those who can (such as most people in society, and the more moderate established Church) do not. If you go around telling innocent people they are going to Hell just because you have become convinced of this by a book you have read, then you can expect a good deal of anger in response. What you sow, you will surely reap.
I have no problem with homosexuals keeping to themselves and carrying out whatever dirty business they do entirely in private.
The problem I have is people boasting about their homosexuality, boasting about their very immoral behaviour and number of homosexual encounters and homosexual ‘conquests’, and in particular, trying to pervert others.
And yes I do think homosexuality is a very dirty business indeed. The very filthiest of habits indeed.
But those who are blind cannot see. If you sow love, you will reap love. If you so further hate, that is what YOU will get in return.
But homosexuals disown God, disown the Bible and disown the Laws of and for God’s people. If you love Jesus and love God, you would not act in the way you do. If you truly loved your neighbour you would not lust over them and commit homosexual acts with them, subjecting men and boys to your lust and vulgarity.
As for any anger, there has always been the indignation of God’s people at open and public disconduct, and at perverse and wanton acts.
If you act homosexually in public and try to pervert others, you can expect and you will get just, open and honest criticism from Christians.
But you also act against God and God’s decrees, treat Jesus with spite and hatred and treat his followers in the same way.
Your anger or the anger of other homosexuals, atheists or agnostics has no meaning in the truth of things and is of no interest or concern of mine.
Jesus did not come to unite Christians in any way or form with Christians, so just get over that. Homosexuals will never have any acceptance from or by the true Christian Church, for all time and eternity. There will always be those in the Christian Church who regard homosexuality with complete distaste and utter abhorrence.
But yes, anger – you will face God’s anger and wrath; if you do not change your wretched, filthy and disgusting ways. And yes your homosexually driven public behaviour does cause true Christians profound anger.
There is no bigotry in my expressing my own true feelings, nor in God’s law being repeated to you. You do not belong here on a Christian forum as you have no belonging in Christ, yet you persist trying to change laws and views which you will never, as in never change.
If you are angry at God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Christians and God’s Law, that is YOUR problem, not mine. I suggest the solution lies with YOU.
Reading this particular post, I was fondly reminded of a time when “Viz”, back when it used to be funny, ran a strip called “Victorian Dad”. The cadence and language of the titular character was just like yours, Charles. Ahhh, the good old days
I too am fondly reminiscent of older times, when homosexuals were stoned to death. Sigh!
Christianity is as fresh and relevant now as it was in the times of Jesus.
Those who are not for God are against God.
And – By the way, they also mocked Jesus on the cross.
Your loss in not believing in Jesus is my gain. Jesus is permanent .
You are transient, and of little worth to God while you are a non-believer, and of even less worth to God if you practise homosexuality.
But even homosexuals might do some good in the world. Who knows? – It won’t be through their homosexuality though, that is for sure.
Personally, I find things like murder, rape, torture, slavery, poverty and famine to be far dirtier than two people of the same sex being in love with each other. But then I am just an atheist with no moral compass.
That should read of course – Jesus did not come to unite Christians in any way or form with homosexuals, so just get over that.
Each to their own, what is one man’s meat is indeed another man’s poison. And if male sexual love of another male and males lusting after males is your cup of tea it certainly is not and never will be mine.
You do and think what you want; I do what God asks and requires of me.
There is a totally unbridgeable gulf between Christians and practicing homosexuals – that cannot be resolved in any way, shape or form.
The difference between us is that I rate homosexuality as being as evil as those things you mention – which are equally abhorrent to Christians. You forget the penalty in biblical times for being caught in homosexual acts was stoning to death.
If you would push things, the only thing I find more abhorrent than wanton homosexuality is serial killings.
In this day and age we can’t even tell homosexuals to go forth and ‘multiply’, because they can’t reproduce, only pervert others in their like and likeness.
And it is a fine thing for someone like you to mention moral compass!
This doggrel puts me in mind of my old nan’s outbursts. She’s 85. Sometimes, I read your posts to her. She’s forgotten almost everything except her homophobia so your talk of stoning poofs brings a huge smile to her demented face.
Perhaps Christian Voice would like a picture of her bayoneting a gayer in her salad days to pop on the website?
Why is it that homosexuals always take things the wrong way, funny that?
Or are all homosexuals so mentally and emotionally immature that they can’t refrain from trying to turn other people into their ‘kind’, and so emotionally immature that they can’t handle criticism of any sort?
Christians are not here to appease or please homosexuals. Sorry about that, that’s the way it is.
Why is it that Christians always take things the wrong way, funny that?
Or are all Christians so mentally and emotionally immature that they can’t refrain from trying to turn other people into their ‘kind’, and so emotionally immature that they can’t handle criticism of any sort?
You may be disappointed to learn that I’m actually 100% heterosexual. Well, maybe 95%.
Charles, if I told you I was homosexual, would you pray for me to have me cured? Would you sweetie? I’m not, I happen to be straight, but it would totally turn me on.
Ian, go and be nuisance elsewhere than on this forum. – You seriously need to grow up a bit.
For once, dear Charles, I’m going to do what you say. I have wasted enough time on this forum, arguing with people with the mental agility of toddlers. Fortunately, your poisonous, hateful group has no influence in the UK (you’d love Nigeria by the way- lovely at this time of year), and is only known about due to the alternately hilarious/ horrific viewpoints it showcases and the willingness of people like me, Dave and Alex to challenge you. Without us, you’re just a straight-to-video version of the Westboro Baptist Church.
I had thought of going through your ‘points’ one by one, but I think they stand well enough by themselves to prove what a troubled, pitiful character you are. Your idea of stoning to death people who are openly gay in public is interesting though. Does that mean next time I see someone praying in public or building another church I can stone them too? Probably not. I forget that all your beliefs are self-justificatory- after all, you own morality don’t you. It says so in your book.
Incidentally, I don’t think that Christianity and homosexuality are necessarily incompatible. One is a natural phenomena that has been around throughout recorded history; Christianity is quite a new kid on the block in comparison, but don’t worry- I’m sure you people will adapt in time. Still, I’ll agree with you on one point- what religion wants people who don’t procreate? If you want a good amount of followers, you need to get to children young (i.e. before the age of reason) to convert them; it’s either that or target people at vulnerable points in their lives (hello Salvation Army).
As an afterthought, has it ever occurred to you that you people spend far more time than is normal- nay, healthy- obsessing about what men who love each other do to each other behind closed doors? That perhaps…just perhaps…it might be something enjoyab…..no. Blank those thoughts out. Blank them out with hate.
I disagree slightly. Christian Voice has some potential to be an influence. Remember a couple of years ago when Elton John adopted a child, the BBC News went to Stephen Green and his opinion was broadcast on the main Nine o’clock news. That is why it important that this hate group needs to be challenged by the likes of us in any way we can.
Besides, you’re posts a breath of fresh air in this fetid environment.
Christian Voice does not in any way constitute a hate group, though OTHERS might choose to so proclaim – because they are NOT Christians and hate Christianity for teaching others to worship God, believe in Jesus and act toward others and themselves in a Christian way.
Christian Voice is here to preach the Gospel, put forward the Good News of Salvation through belief in Jesus, make commentary based on Christian laws and principles, and speak out from the Bible, to carry the message of what Christians do, what God does for us, and to bear Christian witness in regard to all things.
We also make comment on others views presenting the Christian alternatives.
If others choose to interpret our worshipping God, upholding high moral standards, admitting sinfulness, believing in Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, and professing love and caring and supporting others especially other Christians, as hate, that is their concern and their loss.
Just to make matters abundantly clear, Christians in preaching the Good News and bearing witness to God first, then Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, also admit where Christians are found wanting, act out of weakness, or sinfully, and support as well as
For us to say and proclaim in truth, and with the greatest vigour that Jesus is indeed alive today and always is the greatest message of love possible. If we believe in God, we are saved through Jesus’s love and God’s love for us. Life, love and friendship are all supremely important, after loving God, Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. We worship God for creating us, other living things and all things, Jesus for giving of Himself, even though He is the Son of God on the cross and mediating with God for our salvation, and the Holy Spirit for allowing others to act through and with God’s power and assistance.
Love does not bear hate, rather hate cannot abide Life, love and Christian friendship! But then hate does not recognize love in the first place.
Challenge what you will, Christianity bears the message of God’s love, Jesus’s love and the power and holiness of the Holy Spirit. It has even borne and overcome the challenge of non-Christians putting Jesus to death, as he is as alive today, in fact more so than than before the crucifixion.
If the greatest hate and evil ever, crucifying Jesus, has been turned entirely to good and the furtherance of goodness, life and love,
So I ask you Dave why do you persecute God, persecute Jesus and persecute Christians and Christianity? Is it out of love or hate within yourself?
Or would you try to turn the greatest love mankind has ever known to hatred, nothingness and evil?
But then you would have to know this love in the first place, before being able to comment upon it. As you do not know this love, the darkness hateth the light.
Christian Voice is here to promote Good and Goodness and Love, not hate.
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Oh, Charles, think about what you are saying. If I had the power to persecute God, you should be very afraid of me.
You cannot love anyone else until you learn to love yourself. Take some time today to reflect on yourself. Compliment the things you love and make a plan to change the things you don’t.
Trying to mock Christians is not a good point!
God has the power to persecute you!
I am afraid of God because God has the power to destroy a living soul. I am not and never will be afraid of any living personage,including you, because they can harm by my body, but they cannot harm my soul.
There’s no hatred involved. There is nothing natural about homosexuality, it is completely unnatural and a totally avoidable behaviour. I have already said that what others do out of public is ‘their business’, though having said that,it still comes under God’s Judgement.
The problem publicly is in their publicly accosting males who mostly have no wish to be so accosted and find approaches by homosexuals detestable, trying to pervert others and making their homosexuality widely known. Advertising homosexuality is morally indefensible, it is not by definition normal behaviour.
Just a very small percentage of males – who also happen to be homosexuals – are responsible for the majority of sexual crimes against males, many of these crimes being against younger adolescents or young boys, of almost any age upwards.
The morality of homosexuals is appalling and abhorrent in its absence, with their having100’s if not 1000’sof homosexual relationships per homosexual.
They aggressively promote homosexuality to the distaste and often disgust of the general population, and their looseness of morals leads to generally other very immoral behaviour.
We not only detest the homosexual act, but also their generally very loose morals, which unfortunately all too often pervades the rest of their sorry existences. Their is no self-righteousness in this. Christians with any thought for other people and for God do not behave in this way, as it an unseemly and improper thing to do and we – choose – not to so act ourselves.
Ian, you show your own brainwashing and religious beliefs you say” It is true that we don’t know what triggered the Big Bang; it doesn’t follow from this that the god from your books did it” For starters you are confusing a hypothesis with a fact, the so-called big bang does not even qualify as as theory through lack of evidence, its mere hypothesis not a scientific fact. infact it leaves you with the bigger problem than the creator God. You either have to believe in eternal matter and energy or something from nothing with no intelligence behind it but blind eternal forces or blind something from nothing magic. The big bang is your cauldren, time is your magic wand, and nothing is the spell caster. God says you are without excuse for not believing as creation is self evident if you have not been blinded by the false religion of philosophy and science falsely called. Of course christians are facing more and more persecution in direct proportion to the ever falling rates of morality. Of course the social engineering immoral leaders hate the christian stance of standing in the morality of God and not the subjective morality from the minds of the social engineers. Of course they hate the fact that we will obey God and not man when it comes to morality. Of course they are using militant homosexuality, sexual depravity, greed and the breakdown of traditional marriage and morals with social engineeering to destroy this christian country. They “tolerate” anything but God’s truth don’t they. They are the real haters as they hate christians with a passion for refusing to fall for their social engineering, depravity, selfisness, idolatry, immorality and the fact we don’t celebrate our sins. Their hate crimes against christians and intolerance of anyone who disagrees with them along with the utter hypocricy beggers belief.
On the other hand Christ said we would be persecuted for our beliefs and that the world would hate us, its an honour to be counted in this company and to sufferfor the name of Jesus as it means we are the narrow path of truth.
We do not hate homosexuals specifically for their homosexual conduct though that is bad enough in itself. We hate particularly the avoidance of acting with any sort of morals, their promoting homosexuality, and their publicizing homosexual lifestyles.
I can think of several people who are/were homosexuals who do not/did not publicize and boast about their homosexuality, who were excellent entertainers and had a shred of decency about themselves, and are/were generally reasonable and having with a decent public manner about them. Aside of their homosexuality, they are/were genuinely very decent people. Unfortunately, though, some of their colleagues have in some cases, been left bitter at homosexual approaches by them.
As Christians, we think it better altogether to abstain from such behaviour, rather than to give in to homosexual lusts. It is also very inappropriate and very damaging for homosexuals to use this to get preferential treatment under ‘equality’ laws – that seem to make concessions to homosexuals that are denied to everyone else, force their homosexuality on others, or to attempt to change societies norms and institutions such as marriage, which is by definition the union between a man and a woman.
For myself, and for most decent people in general, if I had never heard of the term homosexuals, and did not know such a ‘thing’ existed, I would have a much happier life.
As one example of the immense damage homosexuals can cause, Catholic adoption agencies who did very good work in placing children in safe environments within loving and ‘normal’ families, were forced out of existence by homosexuals pursuing ‘equality’. It is quite impossible, and totally incompatible with Christian beliefs for a Christian agency to in any way put children into a potentially devastatingly dangerous homosexual environment, where such (innocent) children might be subjected to homosexual immorality and homosexual outlooks in life.
It is their dangerous influence on ‘normal’ society that poses the biggest threat. Quiet, hidden ‘tolerance’ – if not outirght acceptance – is one thing. Their attempting to pervert and destroy society as we know it is quite something else.
I believe and consider that the dangerous behaviour of many, if not most homosexuals, against young and very young males, their accosting of normal males, and their attempts to destroy the fabric of a decent society are enough in themselves for us to be very wary of homosexuals and their motives.
Christians and Christianity have very good reasons, aside of God’s detesting homosexual conduct, in disliking and doing all that can be done to lessen dangerous influences on individuals and on society in general. Christians dislike and detest the dangerous purveyance of homosexual ethics across society in general, to the detriment of us all, excepting homosexuals who are the only ones to gain anything out of corrupting society, by their actions.
Sorry Charles, but like Ian I’m finished with you. I fear that you prove just how damaging it is when religion preys on those with fragile psyches.
It’s completely amazing and very wonderful how many people with fragile psyches have been helped very greatly indeed by religion, transforming their lives very much for the better!
Christianity rocks!
[…] The Persecution of Christians in Britain (Part 2) […]
A piece of scripture comes to mind ‘Do not cast your pearls before swine’.
This may never be read but I felt the Lord wanted me to write it.
As regards to God’s love. He wants that none should perish and that all should have the chance to come to know Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. We all have our own choices to make, whether we want to believe and accept Him as our Lord and Saviour or not.
I had always thought of myself as a Christian, indeed I would often pray to God in times of trouble. However my life was certainly not that of a Christian although I would help people out, do good deeds etcetera. Prior to my becoming a Christian ‘A follower of Jesus’ I lived my life as I wanted to. As time went on I started to drink more and more and my morels became such that I was in lots of different relationships and one night stands and there was probably not one swear word that I did not use. I thought this behaviour was OK at the time, after all we are told every day by the media ‘That if it feels good do it’ or ‘Your worth it’.
The next will sound very strange to someone who has not experienced this and in fact if someone had said to me that I would stop clubbing, drinking, smoking, sleeping around and swearing and start going to church I would have told them they were stupid and to basically get on their bike.
However that is exactly what happened to me.
My boyfriend’s mother was a borne again Christian, he wasn’t, and eventually she asked me if I would like to go to church with her, to which I replied no thank you, but, not wanting to upset her too much I said if she found me a lively church to go to I would go with her. To which she pulled out a leaflet and said, ‘Actually I was given this leaflet yesterday by two guys in the market and their words were that she might like their church as it was quite lively’. As I had already put my foot in it I felt obliged to go. The following week we went to this church and I cannot explain this but as I walked through the doors I felt as if I had come home – very strange. We went for a few weeks and all I could do was cry and I could not explain why. Eventually a lady from the congregation asked me if I wanted to ask Jesus into my life as my Lord and Saviour and although I did not understand what she was saying at the time I just knew I did. She led me in what is called the sinners prayer which is basically telling God that you are sorry for all you have done wrong and asking Jesus to come into your life as your Lord and Saviour. She said I may not feel any different but that Jesus had come to live in me by the power of the Holy Spirit. Not feeling any different and still not understanding what she had said or what I had done we left.
I found myself wanting to read the Bible and wanting to go to church, even though she said she wanted to go back to her own church, which she did, I continued going to church. My children laughed at me and told me it was my age, I was 47 at the time, and told me that it would last 6 months.
After a few weeks of being greeted by my children with ‘Hallelujah Praise the Lord’ she’s here again after going to church they said to me, ‘Actually mum it’s not too bad this going to church thing cos we can just about get away with murder and you don’t scream and ball at us like you used to’. My work colleagues and friends noticed I had stopped swearing and eventually I realised I had stopped drinking alcohol. I previously drank baccardi and coke when I got home from work, I’d had a bad day I used to tell my self, and had started drinking at lunchtime too, and I would be in the clubs or lock ups in the pub till the early hours and I had found I couldn’t get drunk any more I was so used to drinking.
No one at church ever said to me, though shalt not drink, shout at your children, stop swearing, smoking etc it just happened and eventually He showed me that I should not be sleeping with my boyfriend. We were going to get married as we ‘loved’ each other, but the funny thing is that although he said he respected my wishes not to sleep together any more our relationship did not last very long once sex was not in the equation. I realised we were not in love but in ‘lust’ as had happened so many times in my life.
Eventually I realised that by asking Jesus into my life to be my Lord and Saviour I had given God the authority to change me, to actually be a true follower of Christ and live the life He wanted me to live. I have found so much freedom, love and peace in my life that I would not want to change it for the world. I am not saying being a Christian is easy because it isn’t but God helps you through all the trials of this world we live in and yes we do get ridiculed for our faith and the way we live our lives but I would much rather live this life than live the way I was before.
Please don’t get me wrong, I do make mistakes, a wrong thought, word or deed, I am not perfect and any Christian who says they don’t do wrong are not telling the truth so are sinning. However, as Christians we try our best to follow Christ and should we make a mistake we know we can come to our loving Heavenly Father and He will forgive us and help us not to make the same mistakes again. It may take a while but He does not give up on us and He’s always there for us.
I know you will find this hard to believe or understand the same as I did but unless you give God a chance you will never know what true love is. John 3:16.
As for the subject of homosexuality;
One of my nephews is ‘gay’ and I love him just as much now as I did before he ‘came out’, but I do not like the sin he is committing against God. God loves him even more than I do, just as He loved me when I was a ‘fornicator’. He loves us but not the sins we commit. He loves everyone and He can free us from the sin that binds us that causes deep down hurt and separates us from Him. Everyone wants to be loved by someone to be accepted just as they are. Come to Jesus as I did, give Him a chance, Let Him show you what true love is. As a Christian I pray for my nephew and his boyfriend to come to know the Lord, as I do believe in Heaven and hell and I want them both to go to Heaven. I know the Lord can change them as He has changed other homosexuals and other sinners like myself but we have to make our own choices, we all have a right to choose which way we want to go. I pray they will choose eternal life and you will too. God bless you all.
Janet
[…] The Persecution of Christians in Britain (Part 2) […]
[…] Originally Posted by non-religious You're not being persecuted. Your sensibilities are being somewhat offended, but I would be happy to read a list, provided by you, that illustrates evidence that persecution is occurring in the UK. Of course the examples will have to specifically apply only to Christians. Thanks Happy to oblige! It's quite long but please read the whole thing. The Persecution of Christians in Britain (Part 2) – Christian Voice UK […]
[…] Persecution of Christians in Britain (part 2) […]